E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?
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Maleth
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Just some food for thought. I strongly believe that when one looks at the whole picture I would very much be inclined to believe that E-V13 mutation happened somewhere in Europe. The 1% found in some parts of North Africa are imports due to Greek settlements in Egypt (Which has been happening as far back as the Pharaohs era) and slaves brought in by North African corsairs when raiding South Europe. (Which were frequent and took whole villages away as slaves). Also there could have been settlements of Jews that were expelled from South Europe and found refuge in north Africa. (Example E-V13 is most common amongst the Jewish communities in Libya.)
Remember that E-V13 reaches 10% in some parts of central Europe, so its not that rare, besides it reaches more or less same percentages (even higher) in Scandinavia and Britain as those found in the north Africa.
Remember that E-V13 reaches 10% in some parts of central Europe, so its not that rare, besides it reaches more or less same percentages (even higher) in Scandinavia and Britain as those found in the north Africa.
I think yes but there's not much studies on E-V13, in Iberia today isn't even common.
Not optimal resolution but surely better than nothing, as you saw there were also two Greeks.
Angela
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Just some general comments:
The "young" age of E-V13 is irrelevant in terms of its origin. First of all, most of the R1b and R1a and I1 clades in Europe are "young". Most y dna lineages die out; all we see is the TMRCA of the lucky survivors. We don't see all the sister, or brother, if you will, lineages.
What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.
None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)
It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.
What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.
Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.
See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png
I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.
One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.
For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.
The "young" age of E-V13 is irrelevant in terms of its origin. First of all, most of the R1b and R1a and I1 clades in Europe are "young". Most y dna lineages die out; all we see is the TMRCA of the lucky survivors. We don't see all the sister, or brother, if you will, lineages.
What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.
None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)
It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.
What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.
Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.
See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png
I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.
One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.
For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.
Maleth
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This sounds a little bit like mythology and not hard science in my opinion!
In that case he would not be much different from the present people as the climatic conditions would have determined to see the Physiognomy we see today in order to be able to survive the local climatic conditions.
Maleth
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nicely explained Angela thanks. Cannot wait to have more and more results. According to E-V13 Eupidia Map provided the E-V13 around the agean sea is very coastal in Turkey and looks like an extension from Greece and the balkan region (In this case) and not the other way round. However I do know that one cannot rely solely on maybe more recent expansions from a particular geographical location (in this case the Balkans). Its even more strange that the oldest E-v13 yet to be found comes from Iberia. If not mistaken the oldest after that is from Thessaly in Greece. But again I don't know much about the science and as you say Phylogenetics play a part. I guess there is still a long way to go to have some kind of reliable and correct picture (if we ever do)
noUseForAname
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i was just replying to a thread where it said that everybody who left from Africa was Black, i dont believe this is true. Just because now most are black people doesn't mean that 50,000 ago people were all black in Africa.
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Why wouldn't they? Black is the best skin tone for these climatic conditions. Look at lighter skin bedouins in sub saharan Africa, how much they need to be covered from head to toes in cloths to survive. White people who live in Africa have 100 or 1000 times bigger prevalence of skin cancer than black Africans. Black is the best skin colour there.
You might be right on the Gibraltar/Iberian origin of E-v13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Neolithic. We know for sure they were part of Iberian Neolithic farmers.
Angela
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The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)
That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.
The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011
See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long
As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.
It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg
However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png
Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.
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noUseForAname
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It is a mythology for sure, and nothing is scientific proven and maybe never be...it was rather an opinion to not be racist cause color shoudnt be...also it might be true in the following cases, 1: if we are really created from God then in order to not be one sided whith the color then its actually a good idea to create a mixed color...all colors included...well it might sound stupid but just an opinion...
Sounds like black color is much convenient for the current climate of Africa, however what i was trying to say is that climate was never the same, specially if we are talking about 50,000 years before, we also know that in pharaohs era most of Egypt was green. And even much before, the recent humanoid discovered oldest skeleton 4.4 million years old
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/10/01_ardiskeleton.shtml
European paleolithic hunter-gatherers were brown, which makes E-v13, as a Neolithic farmer, part of the first small population of white people to ever exist. So it was a seeder for genes of white skin.
Maleth
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Its a good point and was curious to see if we might have some indications. This is the closest I got (quoting) 'It is obvious from the graph that we are now living in the coldest period of Earth’s history for the last 65 million years.'(End quote) So the probability is that the Earth was even warmer during the early evolution of homo sapiens. I also read somewhere (I post link if I find it) that some 3 Million years ago the global temperature was some 2 to 3 degrees warmer then it is today.
http://joannenova.com.au/2010/02/the-big-picture-65-million-years-of-temperature-swings/
LeBrok
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Don't worry, talking about races is not going to make you one.
You have to let go this idea. It coulds understanding of how nature works.
Skin tone is not about air being warm or cold, it is about intencity of UV radiation from the Sun. 50 kya during ice age Earth was much drier than today, therefore air around equator was more transparent for sun rays, thus more intense. Black skin colour would have been even more desirable. They might not have been superblack, just shades of darker brown, but definitely they were not white.
Soon we will know for sure. Skin colour is written in DNA. We just need to find human remains in Africa dated 100 years ago and learn everything about skin colour. So far our knowledge about skin pigmentation is not complete.
noUseForAname
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Yes that is what i meant from the beginning definitely not all white and definitely not all black.
Maybe something like the one they found 7,000 years in Spain and it is E-V13 (10,000 years) which is a subclade of E1b1b (42,000 years)
This color seems pretty close except for his eyes i think
http://www.livescience.com/42838-european-hunter-gatherer-genome-sequenced.html
I think the midpoint is the logical one, thats why i speculated that the first humanoid is between white and black (mixed with all main colors)
Maybe then some mutated to all white (through millions of years) and some to all black depending on the geographical locations and UV radiation. Then some stayed the same (light or darker brownish).
Angela
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That is not the "re-creation" of the Neolithic farmer who was E-V13. It is the recreation of a western hunter gatherer, and not a particularly good one, in my opinion, as he looks far too "modern" for the skull they found.
noUseForAname
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Yes definitely based on his overall look he looks way to modern (actually he looks like a current nice looking HIPSTER lol), however we were discussing the skin color, not all white and not all black but rather a midpoint of rather brownish color.
I tested E-V13 Positive and my origin is Albanian ... 100% Albanian, 87.2% Balkan and 95.6% southern European, i have no greek relation whatsoever .. well greeks have relation to Albanians & that is the E-V13 that was picked up from Albanians .. DNA does not lie .. your point is ?
Albanians have the highest Levels of E-V13 especially in Kosovo aka Dardania.
I will post up my Family tree YDNA-63 results once in.
cheers
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