European Civilization built ond Proto-Indo-European and Semitic foundations
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Fire Haired14
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Angela I'm tired of your snippy attitude. I deserve some respect. Quit acting like your better than me, ok. Sorry, I don't have a phd in every subject every discussed here. It doesn't take a phd to know that the there's no prove the story of adam and eve says something about a society's view of women, that's just one opinon.
Fire Haired14
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Wow, ok man. None of that disqualifies what I argue. It doesn't justify her being snippy either. And I know more than her in most subjects concerning genetics but she acts as if she knows more because she assumes everything not coming from academics is corrupted. I know she knows a lot and I respect her posts, but she has standards so high where if you don't have a list of sources somehow everything you say can't be taken seriously, when in most cases it changes nothing.
Maleth
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Ditto, and for people who genuinely love history its as logical as it can get.
That would certaily interest me. It does sound like a good read and I would have a look at it. Thanks for link.
Maleth
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First you said this-:
Then you said the opposite:-
or maybe I am not understanding your argument. But let me give it a try. Women in Pre Islamic Arabia are also known to have the same phsyce as they have today more or less, with the exception that women from wealthier families seem to have had more authority then the average women which always seemed to be (Much more) inferior to men. This same pre Islamic culture in Arabia could have spread in the region, and that is exactly were we get the first Abrahamic traditions (included in the three religions) of the creation of the world, Adam and Eve story and all the demeaning women stories ingrained in the religion as its a continuation of earlier tribes of the region. The old believes in what we call old Europe seem to be totally disconnected with this psyche. I am not much aware of what believes came after the arrival of the more nordic tribes and what there believes were and how those societies changed (believe / religion wise), but what we know for sure, at least within the last 2000 years that the middle eastern religions have spread like wild fire on the European continent (all in different degrees but the basics the same of course). We also know that a new branch of these religions (Islam) has been created to reaffirm the origins of these pre biblical tribes...... Never the less the cultures are all deeply ingrained as Angela stated in the form of Religion.
If this is not what you meant by your post then kindly explain better. Thank you
Then you said the opposite:-
Yetos said:
Yetos said:
or maybe I am not understanding your argument. But let me give it a try. Women in Pre Islamic Arabia are also known to have the same phsyce as they have today more or less, with the exception that women from wealthier families seem to have had more authority then the average women which always seemed to be (Much more) inferior to men. This same pre Islamic culture in Arabia could have spread in the region, and that is exactly were we get the first Abrahamic traditions (included in the three religions) of the creation of the world, Adam and Eve story and all the demeaning women stories ingrained in the religion as its a continuation of earlier tribes of the region. The old believes in what we call old Europe seem to be totally disconnected with this psyche. I am not much aware of what believes came after the arrival of the more nordic tribes and what there believes were and how those societies changed (believe / religion wise), but what we know for sure, at least within the last 2000 years that the middle eastern religions have spread like wild fire on the European continent (all in different degrees but the basics the same of course). We also know that a new branch of these religions (Islam) has been created to reaffirm the origins of these pre biblical tribes...... Never the less the cultures are all deeply ingrained as Angela stated in the form of Religion.
If this is not what you meant by your post then kindly explain better. Thank you
Milan
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Christianity for example which apart from Old testament which comes from Hebrew bible and connects them is very different religion and tradition,treating woman is probably how they wanted to be or they were used to be.Humans made religion's.
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epoch
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Christianity may have Semitic roots, it is a product of the Roman empire. The Christian god differs substantially from the Jewish god. The last one was a jealous god. The novel idea of a god that made a deal with the sinners is materialized in the Bible through the letters of Paul, the true founder of Christianity. There is no way the Jewish god would have done. He would have smitten sinners if he had a good day.
Milan
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In my opinion Christianity was influenced by Orphic mysteries mostly,it is similar when one does comparative mythology,what we have from Judaism is only Old Testament.Product of Roman empire, yes it is.
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Angela
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I think there are parallels with all the mystery cults of the Classical Era.
Mithraism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism
Osiris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
Then those cults themselves are an amalgam of the agricultural religions and the Indo-European ones. There was constant cross-fertilization between them all of them.
Yetos
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no the first part is the irony of all monotheistic religion,
and I agree with Sile (I quote him) that all modern religions are anti-female
Judaism, Christianity, Islam
about middle East Near and Arabian peninsula
think Anahita. queenn of Shiva etc, there was significant role for women there,
not as to day
sory if I have been misunderstood,
and thanks for notice.
Milan
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Yes the same parallels were made about them too,i also believe that connection between them exist.
I'm not much into it although i like mythology,but this particular subject need to much study.
Maleth
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You are welcome:- In regards to the bold:-
Before Islam, women experienced limited rights, except those of high status. They were treated like slaves and were incessantly at the mercy of men. They were not considered human and had almost no rights at all. Women were not considered "worthy of prayer" and played no role in the religious aspect of life before Islam.[5] It is said that women were treated no different from “pet goats or sheep”.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_pre-Islamic_Arabia
Perfect fit to the initial creation myths in the book of Genesis
Maleth
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Indeed Christianity in Europe (through Constantine) even took a different direction to the first Christians in the Levant. Its was a source of conflict between Paul of Tarsus and Peter. Paul made Christianity more appealing to the Romans to fit in the culture of the time. However at the same time, Paul had preached inequality between men and women, however Jesus (If we can go by the Gospel) indicates an authoritive role for women (which was very bold for the time)
Angela
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Yes it does. I was assigned Sir James Frazier's The Golden Bough for a course once, and even though it was the abridged version I think it was 1000 pages. I thought I'd die. Then there were all of the James Campbell books. (What is it about the Scottish and myths?
They're both named James too.) I blame that course for the fact that I had to get glasses!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough
It stuck with me, though. It's affected how I think about a lot of things.
Over the years I've gone to see a lot of the sites associated with these mystery cults, from Diana's temple at Lake Nemi, to the Temple of Clitunno in Umbria. The latter was a magical place. It's just drowsing there by the water, deteriorating a little more each day. The day we went there wasn't a soul there, and there's no fees, but of course no one to protect it either.
This is the spring fed river in front of it. My husband blessedly took my children down the road to get gelato so they'd stop running wild in and out of the temple, and I just sat there for a half hour. I expected to see a water nymph any minute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Nemorensis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Clitumnus
Another one of my favorite places is the Basilica of San Clemente al Laterano in Rome. I usually visit it every time I'm in the city. You can start at the lowest level with a Republican era building which might have burned in the Great Fire. An industrial building and an insula was then built. In one of the rooms there was a temple of Mithras. Then, if you go one level up, there's a church dating to the 4th century which was built in a Roman nobleman's house, and then you can finish up with the 11th century basilica. Hundreds and hundreds of years of Roman and Italian history in one building. This construction of successive holy places on top of one another can be seen in the tells in the Middle East too. It's fascinating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_San_Clemente_al_Laterano
Angela
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I don't have the sources right to hand any longer, but I remember more than a few authors proposing that indeed one of the reasons Christianity increased in popularity so quickly was that in comparison to Judaism there was more of a role for women. To this day in Orthodox Jewish Shuls the women are just hurried off to the balcony. Sometimes there's even a screen. I've been to bar mitzvahs where that's where I had to sit, and a lot of the women just sit around gossiping. One old lady told me that "shul is for men".
In the early Church by way of contrast there were women deacons and preachers. Some "gnostic" versions of the Bible propose a huge role for Mary Magdalen. That ended, but the role of nuns in the church for many long centuries provided the only hope for education for women. There were also many erudite and productive nuns who were scribes, and who wrote on religious matters and influenced the politics of their day. They also had the opportunity to run convents which were, in effect, hospitals, farms, and craft centers.
One of my favorites was Hildegard of Bingen, who was a mystic, theologian, and composer, and the confidant of Popes. Her music is very lovely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
Another one was Catherine of Siena, a Tuscan, who was a theologian, a doctor of the church, and had great political influence and influence on the church as well. (She was technically a tertiary, no full time vows.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena
The theology of St. Teresa of Avila is also quite interesting.
You can see that I was taught by frustrated intellectual nuns.
It was an outlet for them, but of course they had to sacrifice their sexuality to it, and often not by choice.
Still, there was no role for women at all in Judaism. In fact, a friend of mine told me that Orthodox men pray a verse that says thank you God for not making me a woman! I hope to heck it's not true. Can you imagine?
It's even worse in Islam.
Maleth
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I don't have the sources right to hand any longer, but I remember more than a few authors proposing that indeed one of the reasons Christianity increased in popularity so quickly was that in comparison to Judaism there was more of a role for women. To this day in Orthodox Jewish Shuls the women are just hurried off to the balcony. Sometimes there's even a screen. I've been to bar mitzvahs where that's where I had to sit, and a lot of the women just sit around gossiping. One old lady told me that "shul is for men".
In the early Church by way of contrast there were women deacons and preachers. Some "gnostic" versions of the Bible propose a huge role for Mary Magdalen. That ended, but the role of nuns in the church for many long centuries provided the only hope for education for women. There were also many erudite and productive nuns who were scribes, and who wrote on religious matters and influenced the politics of their day. They also had the opportunity to run convents which were, in effect, hospitals, farms, and craft centers.
One of my favorites was Hildegard of Bingen, who was a mystic, theologian, and composer, and the confidant of Popes. Her music is very lovely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
Another one was Catherine of Siena, a Tuscan, who was a theologian, a doctor of the church, and had great political influence and influence on the church as well. (She was technically a tertiary, no full time vows.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena
The theology of St. Teresa of Avila is also quite interesting.
You can see that I was taught by frustrated intellectual nuns.
It was an outlet for them, but of course they had to sacrifice their sexuality to it, and often not by choice.
Still, there was no role for women at all in Judaism. In fact, a friend of mine told me that Orthodox men pray a verse that says thank you God for not making me a woman! I hope to heck it's not true. Can you imagine?
It's even worse in Islam.
Well said. I think you might find this interesting too, nun convents came in all forms and attitudes
'What remains is an intriguing story of a female community of former prostitutes and professed nuns, and how these women survived in a society that was bent on controlling them.'
http://melitensia.blogspot.com.mt/2014/02/magdalene-nuns-and-penitent-prostitutes.html
Angela
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Well said. I think you might find this interesting too, nun convents came in all forms and attitudes
'What remains is an intriguing story of a female community of former prostitutes and professed nuns, and how these women survived in a society that was bent on controlling them.'
http://melitensia.blogspot.com.mt/2014/02/magdalene-nuns-and-penitent-prostitutes.html
Fascinating, Maleth. No gathering of hardworking nurses and scribes there. It must have been a hell hole!
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