expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

bicicleur 2

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Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


E-V13 is spread all over Europe
little is known how and when this happened
there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about/background
But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
Any clues?
 
Hm. Well...not sure how to answer this one. But I would assume various Indo-European tribes picked up and assimilated Neolithic E-V13 men. Most likely pre-Greeks, pre-Germans, possibly pre-Italo-Celts in the early Bronze Age....plus the addition of Balkanic soldiers in the Roman Army later in the Roman Empire.....who became Romanized colonists; and may have spread it around Europe at an even higher frequency.

The E-V13 men most likely arrived from Anatolia or somewhere similar. I am guessing the E-V13 found in Mesolithic Catalonia is probably a coincidence....seems like it is not very abundant in the Iberian peninsula as it is in the East, given this map.


Also, this is a subclade of E1b1b...meaning it is a singular mutation of sorts...


Maybe whatever brought E-V13 across Europe, would be the same explanation for why the DF27 subclade of R1b, native to Iberian peninsula; is found as far as Sweden and Slovenia:

Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.jpg


Disclaimer: this hypothesis is very amateur; so I'm sorry if it isn't satisfactory enough.
 
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


E-V13 is spread all over Europe
little is known how and when this happened
there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about/background
But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
Any clues?

IMO, ......E-V13 is a Bulgarian marker ( first mutation in Bulgaria ) , ...its "parent" originally coming from the Levant.
 
we haven't found any E-V13 older than Bronze age in Balkans, minor Asia, or Italy,

the oldest is in Iberia,
but East of Alps the oldest is found at Konya, modern Turkey 2000 BC 4 ky from now,

besides the almost none % among Gascons could also mean something,
 
Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
 
Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Thanks

The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

its formation is 12500ybp


How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13?
 
Thanks

The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

its formation is 12500ybp

I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.
 
I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.

was it salty with this change?

when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)
 
was it salty with this change?

when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)

I presume it was fresh water prior to the Mediterranean over flowing through the Bosphorus straights for a similar reason you stated with the discovery of ancient fresh water mollusks. I wonder what kind of impact this had on the existing populations which must have been abondant because of the Fresh water 7600 BP
 
maybe its not as dramatic as the documentary shows, but there is an agreement it did happen
 
Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

"Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"
 
Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

"Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"

I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper. Which SNP's were confirmed?
Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?

E1b1b-tree.gif
 
I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper.
Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?

Apparently it is very closely related to the types found in the Balkans ;)

It was found in Avellaner cave in North Eastern Spain very close to the French border (Pyrenees)
 
In any case; the finding of E-V13 in Catalonia could be an erroneous report ... or it could possibly be ... that a small group of E-V13 men trekked all the way West in the late Mesolithic.


But, why would there be only a singular migration of E-V13 to the Iberian peninsula?

7,000 years ago would be the Mesolithic, right? So is this a founder? If so, why is this subclade more abundant in the East of Europe rather than Iberia? A migration Eastward?
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

invaded by illyrians or by the 14 tribes of Epirotes under Pyhrrus and his elephants!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

I doubt it was the Illyrians, they did not arrive that far south in the balkans until 400BC
 
^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.
 
^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.

yes, me too, but it seems also the messapii language matched the Illiyrian japodes tribe in modern inland Croatia and also their migration path to apulia....................but I am unsure of this studies correctness

The Messapians or Messapii were an Indo-European people that inhabited, in historical times, the south-eastern peninsula or "heel" of Italy (Salento, modern Apulia), known variously in ancient times as Calabria, Messapia and Iapygia. Their chief towns were Uzentum (modern Ugento), Rudiae (modern Lecce), Brundisium (modern Brindisi) and Hyria. They spoke the Messapian language. They are often referred to as "the most southerly of the Iapygian tribes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
 

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