Facial Reconstruction of Mycaenean era (c.1500 BC) nobleman from ancient Greece

Mycenaeans from Catacomb culture? Did they practiced cranial deformation at all like the people in Catacomb culture, haven't seen such practice among Greeks or are you tracing the masks of the deceased? Can't be said that those masks have origin in the Catacomb culture.What is proof that Mycenaeans were from Catacomb culture apart from guessing?

Perhaps not directly from Catacomb, as a few centuries elapsed between the end of the Catacomb culture (2000 BCE) and the start of the Mycenaean culture (1600 BCE). It's more likely that the Mycenaeans left the Steppe during the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), or in the archeological vacuum in between Catacomb and Srubna. Here is what I wrote in 2009 from my first version of the R1a page (and haven't felt the need to modify since):

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Add to this the presence of R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 both in the Srubna culture and in modern Greece, although apparently with a reversed frequency (R1b-Z2103 is more common than R1a-Z93 in Greece), from the scant data available for both.

So we've got archaeological, linguistic and now also genetic evidence that point to a Steppe origin of the Mycenaeans immediately after the Catacomb culture.
 
Furthermore, whether you like it or not Mycenaean culture doesn't have much in common with any Steppic culture. And I am sure you didn't like the fact the the typical Steppe people were... wogs and their cousin in Kura Araxes Armenia was.. black.

I am not sure I understand you well. Are you saying that the Mycenaeans were not Indo-European speakers or that the Indo-European languages did not originate in the Bronze Age Steppe?
 
Perhaps not directly from Catacomb, as a few centuries elapsed between the end of the Catacomb culture (2000 BCE) and the start of the Mycenaean culture (1600 BCE). It's more likely that the Mycenaeans left the Steppe during the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), or in the archeological vacuum in between Catacomb and Srubna. Here is what I wrote in 2009 from my first version of the R1a page (and haven't felt the need to modify since):

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Add to this the presence of R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 both in the Srubna culture and in modern Greece, although apparently with a reversed frequency (R1b-Z2103 is more common than R1a-Z93 in Greece), from the scant data available for both.

So we've got archaeological, linguistic and now also genetic evidence that point to a Steppe origin of the Mycenaeans immediately after the Catacomb culture.

Mycenians came with war chariots (as symbol of status) and swords.
It was tought that war chariots and swords came from the Mycenians to the Carpathian Basin.
Modern dating technique has proved otherwise, chariots and swords arrived in the Carpathian Basin slightly earlier than the Mycenians in Grrece.
First swords were made in the western edge of the Pontic steppe.
(source : 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe)

I agree, IMO the source of the Mycenians are Catacomb culture people.
My guess, Catacomb were the last R1b tribe on the Pontic steppe, Srubna were R1a (like Sintashta).
 
Mycenians came with war chariots (as symbol of status) and swords.
It was tought that war chariots and swords came from the Mycenians to the Carpathian Basin.
Modern dating technique has proved otherwise, chariots and swords arrived in the Carpathian Basin slightly earlier than the Mycenians in Grrece.
First swords were made in the western edge of the Pontic steppe.
(source : 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe)

I agree, IMO the source of the Mycenians are Catacomb culture people.
My guess, Catacomb were the last R1b tribe on the Pontic steppe, Srubna were R1a (like Sintashta).

We seem to agree. But I am still not quite sure of what happened in the Steppe between 2000 and 1800 BCE, which corresponds to the period when spoke-wheeled horse-drawn chariots were invented in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (R1a-Z93). IMO, the Sintashta tribes did not just extend to Central Asia (Andronovo culture), but also to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe with the Srubna culture. They managed this feat thanks to their new war chariots. Since the Mycenaeans were the ones who brought chariots to Greece, they surely had a relation of some sort with the Srubna tribes.

So the Mycenaeans could have been R1b-Z2103 + R1a-Z280 tribes from the Catacomb culture that were driven out from the steppes by the R1a-Z93 Sintasha/Srubna tribes, or they were a blend of both who set out together to conquer the Balkans with their new chariots.

I think that the latter is more likely due to the similarity between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages but also because of the similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture of the northern Russian forest-steppes, which would also be descended from Abashevo/Sintashta.
 
Well, if the Mycenaeans are from the Catacomb culture, then it is not unlikely that the pigmentation is correct. The papers I linked to upthread indicate that the Catacomb people were darker than modern Europeans.
 
Why are you denying the Indo-European origin of Mycenaean Greeks? The language did not spread by cultural diffusion from neighbours without invasion.

I am not denying this. What I objected to was the assumption that by the year 1500BC there was aristocracy and commoners that looked physically different from each other.
 
Early Aegean art was heavily influenced by the Near East. The Mycenaeans apparently made use of Minoan craftsmen and it wasn't until the classical age that Greek art became really distinctive. Since the reconstruction offered here seems to come from a classical department, it's not surprising that it would reflect the West Asian tendency in Aegean art seen at the time.

Though he isn't too far from modern Greeks, of course. The inhabitants of contemporary Northern Greece are often really heavy-jawed and broad-faced as noted by John Lawrence Angel - quite unlike the classical ideal with its emphasis on soft and balanced features.
 
We seem to agree. But I am still not quite sure of what happened in the Steppe between 2000 and 1800 BCE, which corresponds to the period when spoke-wheeled horse-drawn chariots were invented in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (R1a-Z93). IMO, the Sintashta tribes did not just extend to Central Asia (Andronovo culture), but also to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe with the Srubna culture. They managed this feat thanks to their new war chariots. Since the Mycenaeans were the ones who brought chariots to Greece, they surely had a relation of some sort with the Srubna tribes.

So the Mycenaeans could have been R1b-Z2103 + R1a-Z280 tribes from the Catacomb culture that were driven out from the steppes by the R1a-Z93 Sintasha/Srubna tribes, or they were a blend of both who set out together to conquer the Balkans with their new chariots.

I think that the latter is more likely due to the similarity between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages but also because of the similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture of the northern Russian forest-steppes, which would also be descended from Abashevo/Sintashta.
I don't know much about Mycenaeans but there is absolutely no evidence that Sintasha/Srubna were proto-something. Sintasha folks never left any written sources.


The Graeco-Aryan connection you are talking about has to be located somewhere in West Asia (NorthWestern parts of the Iranian Plateau).

The first attested proto-Indo-Iranian vocabulary was used by Mitanni / Kassites. I'm sure that Mitanni/Kassites were the ancestors of the Medes who spoke a NorthWestern Iranian dialect language like Kurdish. The language of the Medes evolved from Mitanni.

Just an examples: the capital of Mitanni was Wassukanni . Wassukanniwas located in Rojava, Western (Syrian) Kurdistan near Shengal/Shexan.


" The name Washukanni is similar to the Kurdish word 'bashkani', 'bash' meaning good and 'kanî' meaning well or source, and so is translated as 'source of good' but also as 'source of wealth' "

http://www.ancient.eu/Mitanni/


Plus, all the Mitanni rulers had Iranian/Aryan names.


If Sintashta was somehow connected to the Iranian tribes then it has to be due to ancient Iranians (Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau who Iranized the Steppes. There was an archeological evidence for that and now we have got the genetic evidence. There are huge percentages of the Iranian Plateau auDNA in the ancient Steppes people. R1a-Z93 in the Steppes was actually native to and from the Iranian Plateau and related to those people who brought more that 30% of Iranian (Caucaso-Gedrosia) auDNA to the Steppes. If it were not R1a-Z93 people, who do you think that brought more than 30% of Iranian Plateau DNA into the Steppes?? The latest and major paper on R1a came to the conclusion that R1a* is from West Asia.


Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288


" The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India. "

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."


http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288


" Origin of hg R1a

To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity. Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a.
"

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

" Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf


And now we have got evidence that there are huge percentages of Iranian Plateau auDNA in Copper Age Stppes.

So there has to be a correlation between R1a-Z93 and Aryan/Iranian (Caucaso-Gedrosia) auDNA!



It seems that many people are deliberately trying to ignore some recent major scientific studies!
 
From a TV interview with the archaeologists in Greece this morning, it has been confirmed that he was indeed a high member of the aristocracy, as he was buried very close to the tombs of the Kings of Pylos.
The multiple rings that were found with him depict images probably inspired by the person's life and achievements. Their style is heavily influenced by Minoan art.
 
Early Aegean art was heavily influenced by the Near East. The Mycenaeans apparently made use of Minoan craftsmen and it wasn't until the classical age that Greek art became really distinctive. Since the reconstruction offered here seems to come from a classical department, it's not surprising that it would reflect the West Asian tendency in Aegean art seen at the time.

Though he isn't too far from modern Greeks, of course. The inhabitants of contemporary Northern Greece are often really heavy-jawed and broad-faced as noted by John Lawrence Angel - quite unlike the classical ideal with its emphasis on soft and balanced features.


Aegean art is unigue,
the only connexction has been found is with Varna gold mettalurgy.
Aegean culture has nothing to do with other areas,
it is like a sprunk of culture,
minoan is part of Aegean, but laso is unigue,
has nothing to do with Asia or rest Europe,
we can very easy understand the minoan and agean colonies from all other cultures,

the west Asia connection starts with Lydians and minoans trade,
stops, and enough centuries later there is a colonization.


termination Aegean art is about Cycladetic civilization, and only for that,
Minoan culture is not cycladetic,
but both Agean and Minoan are different but connected,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycladic_culture
 
3B556A0AD8FF04E39D36C494CD72007C.jpg

Yamnaya, Boldyrevo I, kurgan 1, grave 1:

32a937e78cb6.jpg


Eastern Corded Ware (Balanovo culture):

390px-Yamna_Srubnik.jpg
 
Funnily, one of those "friends suggestions" that came up on my facebook today was this person from somewhere in Greece :LOL: :
14457327_115738158890891_1634320406982934205_n.jpg
 
wow, looks like cro-magnon

3B556A0AD8FF04E39D36C494CD72007C.jpg

44397-004-D45BC527.jpg


greek bronze close to cromagnon by C. Brace:

F2.large.jpg

not in the slightest he has that long robust oval face that was found among Anatolian_farmers

Lebrok said:
We just few years away from being able to read facial characteristics from genetic code. Let's wait a big. In few years these reconstructions will be reconstructed, lol.

We already have :) someone on Eurogenes poste the result of a Scythian sample and this particular guy facial feature wise looked more typical South European than East European H&G. I will post it when I found it again.
 
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nevermind..
 
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Hmm, interesting... I am not an expert of course, but in Iliad itself Hellen of Troy is being described as bright haired.
This article gives the adjectives in Greek about how the Ancient Greeks described hair - Menelaus and Helen being described as bright haired, or you don't think it is right?

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-in-museums/2013/05/06/was-helen-of-troy-a-natural-blonde/


"Consider, for example, the common epithets (nick-names) for different ethnic groups used in ancient Greek literature: the hairy-headed Achaeans (kare komoontes), Abantes (Thracians), known for their long hair (opithen komoontes), and the bright-haired (likely golden, or blonde) Menelaus (xanthos) – including Helen of Troy (described as having bostrychous xanthes komes)."

"Blond" in Southern countries can mean anything lighter than black/dark brown. Also take in mind Alexanders mother was most likely Scythian and he therefore was not representative of ancient Greeks.
 
Ur giving obvious answers mate. Of course what came to be known as Mycenaeans included the entire population where the majority were obviously the indigeneous people. But it would be realistic to assume that the conquering original Mycenaeans represented the majority of the nobility and would have preferred mating more with each other than with the conquered indigenous commoners.

Therefore, I expect them to be more Northern looking, a term which I personally don't relate to blonde hair. If they originated from Ukraine I can rightly assume the original Mycenaeans had a lot of Dinaric, CM, and Pontid in them, not just the local NE European blonde Baltids.

Im not a Nordicist at all and not not implying the 19th century propaganda of Nordic supremacy over the enslaved Mediterraneans, as we clearly know nowadays that those so-called Nordic heroes were nothing more than taller Dinarics, CM, or Atlanto-Meds, while the majority were the local Mediterranean type. Basically a typical Balkan component and nothing alien.

My point was directed specifically to the reconstructed nobleman as he cant even be Balkanic imo, while other Ancient Greek statues for instance could fit easily in modern Balkan populations. I don't even see him being Greek to be honest, so it's either a very bad reconstruction or he belonged to an extinct (through mixing) phenotype no longer present/rare in Peloponnesus. Hope I explained myself.

Mate no offense but you seriously need to study the physical appearance of the Yamnayans more. Even if they came from Ukraine and South Russia absolutely nothing speaks for them being of light color.
 
not in the slightest he has that long robust oval face that was found among Anatolian_farmers



We already have :) someone on Eurogenes poste the result of a Scythian sample and this particular guy facial feature wise looked more typical South European-West Asian than even East European H&G. I will post it when I found it again.
Wow, future is here faster than I imagined. :)
 
Wow, future is here faster than I imagined. :)

I found it, it was a comment from the google user Giu S

Fascinating stuff!
Worth noting there are other studies like this one (unlike what is claimed in their PDF).
http://www.livescience.com/23188-face-shaping-genes-identified.html
or http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002932 (same stuff)
and
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0516/190516-nose-shape
and
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004224

If you compile those three papers, plus the classic pigmentation-genes. You can use the following genes to create phenotype-PCAs:
DCHS2
RUNX2
GLI3
PAX1
EDAR
OCA2
SLC45A2
SLC24A5
TYRP1
KITLG
HERC2
M1RC
PAX3
PRDM16
TP63
c5orf50
col17a1
slc35d1
FGFR1
LRP6

(on top of the ones from the new paper).

He also created some maps for ancient individuals and some modern users for comparison.
I will post them.
 
Here is another of his comments he is likely of French ancestry but looks obviously South European and his facial features fit that.

Impressive results Davidski, you must look like a paleolithic European fossil! You are closest to Loschbour (and then Lviv).
I made a little gradient map for my own results here:
http://i64.tinypic.com/o9r0j4.jpg (I am most similar to Peloponnese Greeks, South Italians, Sephardi and Moroccans!!!)
I'll make you one for Sein, Davidski, Andronovo, Loschbour and maybe more if I have time.
 
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