Fatal Error in Bosanska Krajina

[Neander]

Look at this map, Bosniak Muslims live in Bosanska Krajina as well as in Bosnia.



Now look at this map in the page #2:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdf

No single bosniak's haplogroup from Bosanska Krajina was deteremined (Bosniak are with circles in that map).

People, we stil don't know to which haplogroup belong the Bosniaks of Krajina-Kladusa !!!

 

[iapodos]

Look at this map, Bosniak Muslims live in Bosanska Krajina as well as in Bosnia.


No single bosniak's haplogroup from Bosanska Krajina was deteremined (Bosniak are with circles in that map).

People, we stil don't know to which haplogroup belong the Bosniaks of Krajina-Kladusa !!!

According to study of Milan Karanovic "Pounje u Bosanskoj Krajini", Muslims from Bosanska Krajina are in vast majority of Anadolian origins. So,their haplogroups should also be in that direction.

 

[Neander]

And how they speak "ikavian" dialect like croats, when the serbs who live nearby speak Jekavicu, while they both were settled there in the same time???

 

[iapodos]

And how they speak "ikavian" dialect like croats, when the serbs who live nearby speak Jekavicu, while they both were settled there in the same time???

Karanovic in his study only states that they are mostly Anadolian, but among them were also some elements of previous population (residents od medieval bosnian kingdom) and those were ikavian and probably connected with bosnian catholics and also some Serbs in Bosanska Krajina (Karanovic thaught that difference between Serbs in Pounje also existed, and that one part of Serbs are those who lived in medieval bosnian kingdom , were ikavian and be close to catholics and muslims). Other jekavian Serbs which came from medieval serbian state were more dominant among orthodox population and their dialect overwhelmed the same way as dialect of ikavian indigenous population overwhelmed on Anadolian invaders.
However, both residents of medieval serbian and medieval bosnian state, ijekavian and ikavian were Serbs ethnically and were I2a2 Dinaric South.

 

[Dalmat]

..."bunch of bullshit"...
However, both residents of medieval serbian and medieval bosnian state, ijekavian and ikavian were Serbs ethnically and were I2a2 Dinaric South.

really,nice to know,but hey its good to have "always helpful Serb" to teach us stuff :grin:

now if we talk about mixing ottomans,well muslims in bosnia,they were probably most protected from ottoman law,and mixed with turks mainly for love or interest reasons.As for pool of ethinc turks in bosinia,it possible but not probable,1st it was unsafe for them to stay around,and 2nd they were already mixed to be called ethinc turks.

Opposed to serbs in serbia and bosina which were ottoman lackeys,and were under "law of 1st night" for 500 years.

 

[iapodos]

Opposed to serbs in serbia and bosina which were ottoman lackeys,and were under "law of 1st night" for 500 years.

This is serious forum, not the place where frustrated Croats spread out their naive urban legends about Serbs.

 

[Bosniaco]

Bosanska Krajina

Iapodos continues the ideology of his idol, Slobodan Milosevic.

Serbia in the woods, Serbia on the moon, Serbian in Papua New Guinea, Serbia in one's intestines... blah blah blah. It takes a radical change to rid one ethnic group of genocidal ideology (remember 1945 Germany).

Bosniaks in Krajina are predominantly I2a, so no surprises there.

 

[iapodos]

Bosniaks in Krajina are predominantly I2a, so no surprises there.

According to what study? The same way I can say that Papuans are I2a too.

If you read my post carefully you will see that I don't consider muslims of Bosnian Krajina ethnic Serbs. So I am not trying to find Serbs everywhere as you suggested.

Slobodan Milosevic can not be my idol, becuse he was comunist, and I am anticomunist.
If you said general Nedic or general Mihailovic then it would be different story...

 

[how yes no 2]

Karanovic in his study only states that they are mostly Anadolian, but among them were also some elements of previous population (residents od medieval bosnian kingdom) and those were ikavian and probably connected with bosnian catholics and also some Serbs in Bosanska Krajina (Karanovic thaught that difference between Serbs in Pounje also existed, and that one part of Serbs are those who lived in medieval bosnian kingdom , were ikavian and be close to catholics and muslims). Other jekavian Serbs which came from medieval serbian state were more dominant among orthodox population and their dialect overwhelmed the same way as dialect of ikavian indigenous population overwhelmed on Anadolian invaders.
However, both residents of medieval serbian and medieval bosnian state, ijekavian and ikavian were Serbs ethnically and were I2a2 Dinaric South.

If I understand you correctly, you have expressed your beliefs that:
1) I2a2-Dinaric South is marker of Serbs
2) I2a2 in medieval Serbian and Bosnian states is (based on locations for sampling data from DNA studies?) is Dinaric South
3) that besides historic proofs (I guess such as that the title of Bosnian kings talks of being ruler of Serbs and does not mention Croats), based on 1) and 2) Bosnian medieval state (that did not include west Bosnia) was state of Serbs
4) that based on study of someone named Karanovic, you expect that genetic tests of west most part of Bosnia that is inhabited by Bosnian muslims will show up different genetic relief due to big Anadolian admixture...


while I can see a possibility that 1-3 are correct, I do not believe that there ever was massive Anadolian admixture in any part of ex-Yugoslavia... if there is big difference to be expected in west most Bosnia compared to other part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is about possibly much larger percentage of R1a as the area is related to historic influence of Croats and as being part of north most Bosnia it is close to low lands of Slavonia which has much more R1a then the Dinaric mountain areas in southern parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina...

really,nice to know,but hey its good to have "always helpful Serb" to teach us stuff :grin:

your allusions on verb "servare" as basis of Serb national name are pointless...
tribal names of Serbs and Croats are much older than Byzantine emperor who tried to interpret origin of tribal name Serbs based on latin language vocabulary, and in fact those tribal names are much older than Roman empire...

Serboi tribe we find in Caucasus in 1st century AD, and Seurbi in prehistoric pre-Celtic Indo-European Iberia ... Seurbi are likely to have arrived to Iberia from other parts of Europe together with neighboring Caladuni, as can be guessed from legend of orign of Scotish people (there is Caledonii tribe in Scotland and legend of arriving there from Iberia and to Iberia via ships from Scythia)...
there are also Sherdana people who were attacking ancient Egypt and whose name stayed recorded in single place name - Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis...

in addition tribal name Serbs is probably of same root as the one for Pasthun Sarbans, as the same Byzantine emperor who hinted that origin of tribal name Serbs might be related to verb "servare", in one of his other works speaks of Sarbans and Krevatas in Caucasus...

so, Serb tribal name is obviously much older than being related to "serving" Byzantine emperor...

My guess is that tribal names of Serbs and Croats are related to ancient Serians and Hurians... In Asia minor, those names are recorded in myth of two bulls Seri and Hurri whose names had meaning "day" and "night"... which is strong reminder on strong mutual relation and opposite characters of Serb and Croat people...

btw. speaking of tribal names and origin of people and tribal names, historian J.B. Bury has no doubt that Croatian legend of origin is same as the one of Bulgarians and is about same Hunnic nation to which related tribes of Bulgars, Cotrigurs and Onogundurs belonged to...

http://books.google.com/books?id=wD...q=Tuga Buga Bury&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false

Turkish historian Osman Karatay also speaks of turkish origin of proto-Croats and identifies white-Croats with white-Ogurs
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_...y&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Croats J.B.Bury&f=false

in fact, Oghur ( = Og + Hur) and H(u)rvat ( = Hur + vat) tribal names might both easily derive from same "Hur" basis as in Hurians..

note also: ak (turkic white = west) + Hur = AkHur = Oghur = west/white Hurians = white/west Croats

Oghur languages include Bulgar, Avar, Khazar, Hunnic and Chuvash languages...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages

Btw. besides Magyars, another word used for Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same as Oghur... and proto-Magyars are non-IE speaking R1a people...

all this is an indication that proto-Croats (and proto-Magyars and proto-Bulgars) might origin from R1a people known as west Hurians or ak-Hur / Oghur people... so, who says Hunnic/Avar related nations has disappeared from Europe....

also Iapodos claimed on one of the topics that he was classifying in a genetic project last names of ex-Yugoslavia people based on distant origin and that his conclusion was that Croats with clear Croat origin mostly had R1a haplogroup...

now if we talk about mixing ottomans,well muslims in bosnia,they were probably most protected from ottoman law,and mixed with turks mainly for love or interest reasons.As for pool of ethinc turks in bosinia,it possible but not probable,1st it was unsafe for them to stay around,and 2nd they were already mixed to be called ethinc turks.

yes, I can agree that Bosnian muslims are in general genetically most pure Serbs as they also didnot mix so much with previous inhabitants (reason why they use word Vlah for orthodox Serbs of Bosnia is that orthodox Serbs have large admixture of previous inhabitants which is btw. visible in much larger percentage of haplogroup E)

I would also add that while most Bosnian muslims origin from proto-Serbs, Bosnian muslims and some Serb families of west Bosnia largely origin from proto-Croats, as west Bosnia was originally probably settled by proto-Croats...

thing is Serbs of today are genetically somewhat different from proto-Serbs who settled Balkan, and Croats of today are genetically somewhat different from proto-Croats who settled Balkan...

big problem with national identities on Balkan is that they are confused with religion.... so orthodox people are identified with Serbs, muslims with Bosnian muslims (or with recently invented ethnicity named Bosniacs) and catholics with Croats.... in reality, some of catholics origin from proto-Serbs, some of orthodox people from proto-Croats, and muslim people from both.... worth noting is that besides proto-Serbs and proto-Croats area of ex-Yugoslavia was also settled by numerous other Slavic tribes whose tribal names are not preserved...

so, only thing that can be done about that is to let everyone be what they feel they are... thus, there is not much point in claiming that e.g. Bosnian muslims are Serbs or Croats...

Opposed to serbs in serbia and bosina which were ottoman lackeys,and were under "law of 1st night" for 500 years.

genetic testings do not confirm existence of Turkish admixture in Serbia...
so, we can discard this fairy tale as urban myth...

 

[Bosniaco]

Bosniaks in Krajina

Iapodos,

It's a shame to be proud of FASCIST (Nedic) and GENOCIDAL (Mihajlovic) ideologies.

Anyone civilized reading Mihajlovic's call to genocide from 1941 would distance himself from such a monster, but I guess many Serbians find GENOCIDE entertaining.

As far as DNA, Pericic et al (2005) established relative dominance of I2a in both Lika and Central Bosnia. Bosniaks from Bihac Krajina are dominantly descendants of expelled Muslim population of Lika from 1492.

Claiming dominance of anything else would be unfounded.

According to what study? The same way I can say that Papuans are I2a too.

If you read my post carefully you will see that I don't consider muslims of Bosnian Krajina ethnic Serbs. So I am not trying to find Serbs everywhere as you suggested.

Slobodan Milosevic can not be my idol, becuse he was comunist, and I am anticomunist.
If you said general Nedic or general Mihailovic then it would be different story...

 

[iapodos]

Iapodos,

It's a shame to be proud of FASCIST (Nedic) and GENOCIDAL (Mihajlovic) ideologies.

Anyone civilized reading Mihajlovic's call to genocide from 1941 would distance himself from such a monster, but I guess many Serbians find GENOCIDE entertaining.

There was no any "Mihajlovic's call to genocide from 1941". I understand your passion for alternative forms of history, but the fact is that General Mihajlovic (executed by comunists) was awarded with decoration American Legion of Merit of the Chief Commander, 29 March 1948. by president Truman. I doubt that Truman would award some fascist after WW2.

As far as DNA, Pericic et al (2005) established relative dominance of I2a in both Lika and Central Bosnia. Bosniaks from Bihac Krajina are dominantly descendants of expelled Muslim population of Lika from 1492.

Claiming dominance of anything else would be unfounded.

Your poor knolewdge of historical facts is obvious from the claim that Muslims was expelled from Lika in 1492. Lika was first time in Otoman hands in 1527. and expulsion of Lika muslims could happened only after that (actually it happened 1689.)And I don't see connection between people analyzed in Lika (which are Croats) and muslims of Cazinska Krajina. They are not analyzed and nothing specific could now be said about their haplogroups.

 

[Bosniaco]

Again, being a Greater Serb, Iapodos finds this entertaining:

... bullet point # 5 from Mihajlovic's Instrukcije, dated Dec 20, 1941:

"Creation of direct common borders between Serbia and Montenegro, as well as Serbia and Slovenia by cleansing the Muslim population from Sandzak, and the Muslim and Croat populations from Bosnia and Herzegovina''

"Stvoriti neposredne zajedničke granice između Srbije i Crne Gore, kao i Srbije i Slovenačke, čišćenjem Sandzaka od muslimanskog življa, a Bosne od muslimanskog i hrvatskog življa"

Mihajlovic's commanders executed his instructions, and up to 300,000 civilians, women, and children were slaughtered. Again, I use the term "slaughtered" and not "killed", because Mihajlovic's people took peoples' lives by cutting their throats and mutilating them, not by shooting them.

I call upon the Administrator to BAN supporters of genocide and those whose statements violate international human rights and genocide conventions - IAPODOS is one of them. I will also email Administration team directly.

 

[Garrick]

Iapodos, Bosniaco
Your dispute has nothing to do with the topic.
I personally highly respected Bosniaks, and I had a few wonderful friends, Sarajevo is a beautiful city, people are very direct and helpful to guests.

Now on the subject.

Neander is right, an unusual criterion was applied by the authors.

Tey found Serbs from Cazin area where almost no Serbs because it is a region inhabited by Bosniaks.

On the other hand in Eastern Herzegovina where Serbs live, authors found Bosniaks, also in Semberija.

Such an unusual way of sampling, which does not reflect the majority population in the Cazin Krajina, Eastern Herzegovina, Semberija and other parts, reduces the value of work.

It is certain that the Serbs are dominant in the Herzegovina and that the sample taken correctly I among the Serbs in Bosnia been greater.

In SerbiaI = 48% according the U.S.research Mirabal et al (2010).

But what different researchers found, as can be seen in this study (despite its flaws) is that populations of Serbs and Bosniaks are very close.

vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdf

Page 4

Figure 3


In one of the new works (there are pictures in the paper but can not be seen for free must be purchased paper):

Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alloy, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/Springer2010

population of Serbs and Romanians are almost equal and the Bosnians are very close (a little left upper side of the Serbs and Romanians), and are the closest, and then the Slav Macedonians (slightly to the left on the lower side of the Serbs and Romanians), who are also very close.

Since it's a new work where the researchers could take into account all previous research and based on all available data make the appropriate calculations, it is clear that after processing, the closeness of populations of Serbs, Romanians and Bosniaks becomes very noticeable, and Slav Macedonians.

I must say, Serbs, Romanians and Bosniaks are separate nations. Serbs and Bosniaks were Slavonized and belong to different religions and Romanians were Romanized.

Various cultural influences were, but it is obvious that the origin is closely.

 

[iapodos]

I call upon the Administrator to BAN supporters of genocide and those whose statements violate international human rights and genocide conventions - IAPODOS is one of them. I will also email Administration team directly.

You are really ridiculous. Why don't you call Bono Vox and U2 to make one humanitarian concert for you?

 

[Bosniaco]

Bosniak Krajina

No, I'll call on NATO to bomb your genocidal ass and be finished with those like you!

Garrick,

Marjanovic's study is not perfect, but any other studies performed on the adjacent populations clearly indicate dominance of I2a, so I would not expect major variations. I know for a fact that a significant chunk of Bosniak Bihac Krajina population hails from the regions to the west, which have a high frequency of this haplogroup.

BTW, MIrabal found I2a among Serbians at 38%, but the sample was low, where only 179 individuals were tested, which may not be too representative (unlike 404 tested Montenegrins, which is almost 1 in 1000, comprising a wonderful sample).

You are really ridiculous. Why don't you call Bono Vox and U2 to make one humanitarian concert for you?

 

[how yes no 2]

No, I'll call on NATO to bomb your genocidal ass and be finished with those like you!

hm, this sounds as very genocidal thinking...

now, back to topic...

Marjanovic's study is not perfect, but any other studies performed on the adjacent populations clearly indicate dominance of I2a, so I would not expect major variations. I know for a fact that a significant chunk of Bosniak Bihac Krajina population hails from the regions to the west, which have a high frequency of this haplogroup.

well, from what I know Lika (both Croat settled areas and what were Serb settled areas) was also never tested...

BTW, MIrabal found I2a among Serbians at 38%, but the sample was low, where only 179 individuals were tested, which may not be too representative (unlike 404 tested Montenegrins, which is almost 1 in 1000, comprising a wonderful sample).

sample size is much larger than in previous researches for Serbs...
but I agree that there should be more detailed testing and that Montenegro sample size compared to number of people is quite impressive.... looking at how large percentage of population was tested, that is probably only nation in word that was properly tested for this kind of research....

 

[Garrick]

No, I'll call on NATO to bomb your genocidal ass and be finished with those like you!

Garrick,

Marjanovic's study is not perfect, but any other studies performed on the adjacent populations clearly indicate dominance of I2a, so I would not expect major variations. I know for a fact that a significant chunk of Bosniak Bihac Krajina population hails from the regions to the west, which have a high frequency of this haplogroup.

BTW, MIrabal found I2a among Serbians at 38%, but the sample was low, where only 179 individuals were tested, which may not be too representative (unlike 404 tested Montenegrins, which is almost 1 in 1000, comprising a wonderful sample).

Bosniaco
Yes, by Mirabal et al (2010) in Serbia I2a is 38.5%, I1 is 7.8% and I2b1 is 1.67 so total I is 47.97%.

For Serbia, it is quite sufficient sample has been taken because there are previous studies and in my opinion the results are completely expected.

Interestingly, almost all the people made the test who I know are I haplogroup (do not know anyone who is R1a).

Taking into account all previous results for Serbia and Romania leads to a very high correspondence of the Serbian and Romanian population.

The nearest them are Bosniaks and close them are Slav Macedonians.

I expected that the Serbs and Romanians have a great closeness as research has confirmed.

So it is not unexpected the Serbs, Romanians, Bosniaks and Slavo Macedonians are close populations.

It is interesting that the Croats and Slovenes, are quite different and their positions in the graphs are far from Serbs, Romanians, Bosniaks, and that is because Croats and Slovenes have much more present R1a (over 35%) and less E and J and they are closer to the Poles, Ukrainians and others.


But for Montenegro had to be taken more samples because it is first research no prior research in Montenegro was done.

Also, the Montenegrins are divided into tribes and there were many contradictory articles on the origin of the Montenegrins, which by the authors of the former Yugoslavia as the western and eastern authors.

And the result for many was a big surprise, since a high percentage of E & J haplogroup in the Montenegrin population.

But if we know close to the border with Albania and the history of those parts of the surprise is not that great, just cleared up what some researchers long ago discerned.

Montenegrins are far away from the Serbs, Romanians and Bosniaks (interestingly, the Slav Macedonians are much closer) and they have different origin.

I do not doubt that the Bosniaks from Cazin Krajina something much different from others, I just pointed out inconsistency of sampling by the Marjanovic and other authors of the study in 2004.

Future studies in Serbia, Bosnia, Romania and Macedonia will certainly be made more precise, by the regions, where they will be accurate to see regional differences (as Maciamo showed for Belgium) but overall the differences will not be much different from existing ones.