Finns weren't N but I haplogroup originally

[MOESAN]

Look where I1a is mainly distributed.

and what???
yes, I know this map, it seems globally good - but Shtrunov found in a survey more than 11% in Arkhangelsk region (Krasnoborsk) and other regions more southern (Ryazan by instance) so a bit more South and East than on this map (of Maciamo) ... but I'm not sure your map was for me in particular...
yet on this map we see Y-I1 that cannot not by sure being put on the account of Germanics nor Finns: the more you go close to the Finnic-Ugric cradle, the more you fonnd Y-N1

 

[Gurka atla]

and what???
yes, I know this map, it seems globally good - but Shtrunov found in a survey more than 11% in Arkhangelsk region (Krasnoborsk) and other regions more southern (Ryazan by instance) so a bit more South and East than on this map (of Maciamo) ... but I'm not sure your map was for me in particular...
yet on this map we see Y-I1 that cannot not by sure being put on the account of Germanics nor Finns: the more you go close to the Finnic-Ugric cradle, the more you fonnd Y-N1

Y-I1 is much more common in non-uralic or finno-ugric speakers of Russia this is very obvious. N1 is clearly a Mongoloid marker that's found highest frequencies in Nenets and Yakuts.

 

[gyms]

Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Grubbe]

At least the Forest Finns who came to Norway via Sweden in the 17. century were overwhelmingly N1c, at least from FTDNA results so far. Most of them came from the northeastern part of Finland, I have read, even if I don't know the source of that statement.

 

[albanopolis]

At least the Forest Finns who came to Norway via Sweden in the 17. century were overwhelmingly N1c, at least from FTDNA results so far. Most of them came from the northeastern part of Finland, I have read, even if I don't know the source of that statement.

Had the Fins been haplo I originally they should not have been speaking Fino-Ugric now. Their language should have been indoeuropean or some non Asian language. My view is that they were a small group of Mongolian related people at the beginning who constantly mixed with local I people. On the way to Finland these Mongolian tribes had already mixed with Russians and later Germanic.

 

[sparkey]

Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not good ones. Certain arguments from modern DNA have had a lot of predictive power. I could show you arguments based on modern DNA that predicted Otzi's haplogroup, and others that predicted that Haplogroup I but not R1b would be found in the European Mesolithic, and still others that C-V20 would be pre-Neolithic in Europe. There's more where that came from as well. Rather than dismissing all arguments from modern DNA, you need to learn which are well-reasoned and which are not.

 

[gyms]

Jean M :
"Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again."

 

[Templar]

My view is that they were a small group of Mongolian related people at the beginning who constantly mixed with local I people.

I agree. They were maybe around 50% European 50% Mongoloid by the time the Swedes started colonizing Finland. And due to Swedish admixture now they are 85%-90%(depending on the study used) European.

 

[Gurka atla]

I agree. They were maybe around 50% European 50% Mongoloid by the time the Swedes started colonizing Finland. And due to Swedish admixture now they are 85%-90%(depending on the study used) European.

I doubt that. More like 10-20% Mongoloid, the western uralic males who spread this would have been about 70% White and 30% Mongoloid eurasians like todays western uralic people. Modern day western uralics are not mostly Mongoloid either only those from the central and east are predominately Mongoloid to pure Mongoloid.

A finnic tribe in Finland on western siberia are only 11 - 39% Mongoloid.

If you mix a western uralic Finnic ( 11 - 39% Mongoloid) with Caucasian you will produce a closer genetic result like modern day Finns.


Haplogroup N reaches highest in Ngannasans who have 93% N and Yakuts and Nenets 75% N where caucasoid admixture is non-existant except the Nenets have 54% Caucasian maternal mtDNA.

 

[gyms]

"It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

"
For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/genetic.htm

 

[LeBrok]

"It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

It is hard to be boat oriented up North where rivers are frozen for half a year.

 

[gyms]

From Poland west to Britain, humans soon found themselves in a marshy land where it was difficult to walk . That began the environmental pressure that promoted a way of life moving about in canoes made from logs.
This would be the beginning of the boat people. These are the people that appear first to archeologists as the "Maglemose" culture. Remnants of ttheir dugout canoes dating to as much as 10,000 years ago have been found preserved in bogs from Britain to Finland.

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/ui-ra-la.html

 

[Gurka atla]

"It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

"
For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/genetic.htm

The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.






Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia

The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)

( Russian translation to English)


FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY


There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.

 

[Gurka atla]

"It is now easier to accept that the Finno-Ugric languages originate from the original boat-oriented hunter-fisher peoples of northern Europe."

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/FinnoUgricbkgd.html

"
For several hundred years, there was a belief that the Sámi and the Finns had a Mongoloid origin. This false belief was due to linguists of the time believing that Finno-Ugric languages had an eastern origin. It was also due to the Finns’ and Sámis’ tendency to have a phenotypic resemblance to the Mongoloids. In actuality, these Mongoloid-like traits do not occur at a higher average rate than they would in other Northern European groups. "
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/genetic.htm

Look what a unreliable article. The person who edited this article was Idda a member from anthroscape who got banned (or maybe they won't the same person, who knows). Don't you see she doesn't get her head right?

She also said this

" Though the Sámi do have some Asian genetic influence, at its highest rate it is only 20-30%, which is no higher than the European average. [7] "


" The Sámi, as well of the Finns, are a very heterogeneous group of people who display a wide range of physical features. While there are some that feature darker Mongoloid-like characteristics, there are others who display very light colored pigments in their skin and hair "

----------------

Real genetic and anthropology data


The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.



Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia

The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)

( Russian translation to English)


FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY


There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.[/QUOTE]

 

[Gurka atla]

This is what it said

" There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians.

Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes.

This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka. "

 

[gyms]

Gurka atla:

This is what i said......

And this is what i said:OH MY GOD!

 

[Gurka atla]

Gurka atla:

This is what i said......

And this is what i said:OH MY GOD!

What it said not what i said

 

[gyms]

A few decades ago the family tree of the Finno-Ugrian languages was interpreted as a map showing how the FU peoples wandered to their present homes. Modern archaeology obviously does not support such wide migrations. Also recent loan word research has shown very old Indo-European loanwords especially in Finnish and the westernmost (Finnic) branch, which means that some pre-form of Finnish must have been spoken relatively close to the Baltic Sea already quite early.
On the other hand, Finnish is certainly related to languages spoken in Middle Russia and West Siberia. This means either that the area of the Finno-Ugrian (Uralic) proto-language has been very wide, reaching perhaps from the Baltic Sea to the Urals, or that we must find alternative explanatory models to account for the spreading of these languages.
http://www.helsinki.fi/~jolaakso/fufaq.html

 

[motzart]

There is more diversity of I1 in Finland than anywhere else, second only to Norway and much more than Sweden. There are only two possible routes for a migration into Scandinavia for Mesolithic people, Finland or Denmark, and given our distributions a Denmark migration is highly unlikely. We know I is very old in Europe and there have not been any N finds at all, also if N was older in Finland than I we should see more N spread into Scandinavia and Europe instead of seeing its limit there. I see hapogroup N arriving in the Neolothic with the Pit Comb culture around 3200 B.C., I1 being much much older.

 

[MOESAN]

There is more diversity of I1 in Finland than anywhere else, second only to Norway and much more than Sweden. There are only two possible routes for a migration into Scandinavia for Mesolithic people, Finland or Denmark, and given our distributions a Denmark migration is highly unlikely. We know I is very old in Europe and there have not been any N finds at all, also if N was older in Finland than I we should see more N spread into Scandinavia and Europe instead of seeing its limit there. I see hapogroup N arriving in the Neolothic with the Pit Comb culture around 3200 B.C., I1 being much much older.

I agree for the most
the Comb-Ceramic people seems have beenphenotypically a mix of roughly caucasoids-mongoloids – based upona scarce panel I think they were already a bit more on the caucasoidor europoid side -

the mt-DNA of northeastern Europe(about the 4200 BC ? later?) was strongly asiatic by origin, as opposedto the steppic people's one, their nevertheless closer neigbours inSouth -

I know nothing about their Y-DNA whatis not saying I 've no opinion -
concerning Finno-Ugric people, if theirfarthest origins are debated (feet in the Keltiminar culture or onlyinfluences from the Keltiminar people ? I think Keltiminar wasrather indo-european, albeit at recent stages, but if we suppose asmany linguists, contacts between ancestors of the Finno-Ugric peopleand the other ancestors of the Indo-Europeans, we are obliged toimagine a contact region somewhere...around Samara ? Kazan ?Surroundings on a band of lands stretching far enough?
Still about phenotypes, Hungarianscholars thought the ancestors of first Hungarians were a mix ofeuropoid 'cro-magnoids A' (their naming) and Ouralians of mongoloidstock, even if less typical than the East-Asians – their'cro-magnoid A' seems a broadly Est-Baltic type so 'cromagnoid' onthe way of brachycephalization, a kind of reduced 'west-borreby' type(the less brutal)... but these Hungarians were maybe not exactly thesame as the Finns who colonized Europe in North, partial ancestors ofFinns of Finland, Estonia and Lappland (Saami) – today ouralic(finno-ougric) tribes show very different means of looks mixture, andoften enough, this 'east-baltic' type dominates the 'mongoloid' typesin the crossing -
&: I speak here of the trueeuropoid element in 'east-baltic', strongly affiliated to a« non-brutal, non-brünnoid » 'borreby'– but somereconstructed pictures given in the thread here show also brutalfeatures and too broad cheekbones compared to less broad jaws -


the today Finland population showgradual clines between West and East, and too, North and South


as a whole, the mt DNA is strongly« european », being the Y-DN very more variated, andhere again, presenting different %s from West to East (and surelyNorth to South) Y-N is very stronger in East (E : 60 to > 70%vs W : 15-20%), Y-I1 stronger in West (W : 30 to >50% vs E : 15-20%); – the fact that mt-DNA is very often more« autochtonous » than Y-DNA, we can suppose firstdwellers of Finland were predominantly of european hunters-gatherersstock AND AT FIRST ANALYSIS NOT FINNIC SPEAKING (supposed substrataof proto-basque and a proto-satem language in the Saami's finnic,even if Lappland is not exactly the same as Finland story) – thefinnic languages were send from East I suppose at « late neolithic »times according to our more southern criteria, around the 4200/3000BC (here again material culture and language are not easy to link)-the preceding culture of Finland are considered as come from West Askola 9000 BC and Komsa : reindeers hunters of Magdaleanculture from North Germany – I 'm almost sure the Y-N bearerswere finnic speakers, and arrived later than the Y-I1 bearers (theselast giving more mothers to the today population) – the Y-I1quality as concluded surveys is specific enough to Finland and farfrom being an exclusive gift of western Scandinavians orpre-Scandinavians -
at the beginning of the I-Ean era camethe Battle Axe people from West and South into Finland : notonly cultural loan, but demic moves according to scholars ;surely not overwhelmingly dominant in number ! - an Y-R1aelement + some rare othrs, sure enough, we can say more present in Estonia than inother neigbouring countries-

Saami present more Y-I1 as a whole evenif they are not so strong as the Osterbothnia region for it – theirphysical type is not homogenous, even if drift augmented somepeculiar features leading to more homogenous aspect - their prototypewould have been in Western Oural regions, between 'east-baltic' and aspecial 'proto-mongoloid type, and they mixed with western Europepopulations of unsure origin (mesolithical N-Spain as farthestorigin?) - all the way, even the majority of their dark hairedindividuals showed a head-hair quality NOT mongoloid -



I conclude this personal opinionssaying the Baltic people OF TODAY are a mix of Finnic AND finnicizedpeople and Indo-Europeans : the lack of Y-I1 is not a lack ofautosomals which were born by Y-I1 people some time ago – but,the Finns males took at some time the strong side upon the firsthunter-gatherers (not by physical force but by material and weaponsadvantages), before being subjected by I-Eans (Y-R1a dominant) andlearning the proto-baltic language.

all that roughly said


In french : « ça vaut ceque ça vaut »...