G25 G25 imperial Greek shift in Greeks and Italians + a comparison with qpAdm

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

These models do not imply direct ancestry, they only show the shifts. On the left i calculated indirect stuff from the proxies. I modelled Italians without South Slavic and Turkic and Greeks without Italy iron age Italy. The Antiquity Greek proxy are the Rome_Imperial samples without Levantine, Armenian, North African, Northern outliers. Basically only the Greek ones who cluster with Greek islanders/Anatolians are included, i also removed the ones that had some North African admix.

Before some of you claim that G25 is a "fraud", scroll down and see the Cypriot G25 results compared to qpAdm. They are the same. You have to remember that G25 is not meant for Mesolithic-Neolithic modelling, Neolithic G25 models are misleading but models with more recent stuff such as the models below are very accurate.

Almost all of the Eastern Imperial admixture in Italians seems to be directly from Greeks. I remember a paper was wrongly claiming that these people came from all over the Empire? Lol, they were just Greek West Anatolians. I checked all the Rome Imperial samples, most of them seem to be Greek West Anatolians and islander like, there were much more direct Greek West Anatolian samples in Imperial Rome than direct Levantine.

The shifts that happened over time in Rome vs modern Italian. The Imperial Greek profile was diluted a bit from North Italians and that formed the modern central Italian profile.

For the people that are spreading misinformation that the Imperial Greek profile existed in Sicily from the Bronze-Iron age and that it did not come from Anatolian Greeks or just Bronze Age Anatolians. As you can see, that is completely false. Dont mind the use of the 1000ad Slavic proxy, im just showing the shifts. There was no significant Anatolian Bronze Age in imperial Italy. Anatolia was already mixed between West and East in the Iron Age which recreated a similar profile to the Bronze Age Anatolians. Stop this nonsense. Just because a study fitted models with Anatolia BA, it does not make it true that Italians have literal direct Anatolia BA.

Check the shifts (does not imply direct ancestry).

Where are the Bronze and Iron Age Sicilians clustering with the Rome Imperial samples? Why are there none if there was such a magical high CHG Anatolian Bronze age migration?

Comparing the shifts with qpAdm for the people claiming that G25 is fake. I used Cypriots because they are easier to model, without crazy high SE.

Same model but with a Slavic proxy. The G25 model is basically identical to qpADM

right = c('Mbuti.DG', 'Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG', 'Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Anatolia_Neolithic_6000_BC', 'Jordan_PPNB', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Croatia_MBA', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC', 'Mycenaean_Greek_1500_1050_BC', 'Minoan_Crete_2600_1700_BC', 'Turkey_Hellenistic_Halikarnassos', 'Latvia_BA', 'Russia_IA_Ingria.SG', 'Albania_1500_400_BC', 'North_Macedonia_500_100_BC')

left = c('Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon', 'Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG')

target = c('Greek_Cypriot')

results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop
--------------------------------------------------
P 0.157
  target        left                         weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                         <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad      0.680  0.0828  8.21
2 Greek_Cypriot Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon 0.268  0.0654  4.10
3 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG   0.0523 0.0224  2.33
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
right = c('Mbuti.DG', 'Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG', 'Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Anatolia_Neolithic_6000_BC', 'Jordan_PPNB', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Croatia_MBA', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC', 'Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA', 'Mycenaean_Greek_1500_1050_BC', 'Minoan_Crete_2600_1700_BC', 'Anatolia_Central_Gordion_780_544BC', 'Turkey_Hellenistic_Halikarnassos', 'Latvia_BA', 'Russia_IA_Ingria.SG', 'Albania_1500_400_BC', 'North_Macedonia_500_100_BC')

left = c('Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon', 'Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG')

target = c('Greek_Cypriot')

results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P 0.0386
  target        left                         weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                         <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad      0.725  0.0863  8.40
2 Greek_Cypriot Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon 0.237  0.0676  3.50
3 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG   0.0384 0.0232  1.66
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The imperial samples i used.

ITA_Rome_Imperial:R66,0.111547,0.158423,-0.033187,-0.06783,0.002154,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.002538,-0.013703,0.025331,0.012991,-0.004196,-0.001041,0.00523,-0.022937,-0.014983,-0.005867,0.000507,0.004902,-0.015257,-0.005241,0.00272,-0.003451,0.00253,0.000958
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R69,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R76,0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R78,0.113823,0.157407,-0.031301,-0.079458,0.002154,-0.03012,-0.000705,-0.007846,-0.007772,0.019317,0.002436,0.005095,-0.009366,0.008395,-0.013436,-0.017369,-0.002217,0.000253,0.010936,-0.006503,-0.007237,-0.000989,-0.006286,-0.000482,0.005389
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R50,0.100164,0.150298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.005092,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R39,0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R40,0.105855,0.151314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R41,0.095611,0.139128,-0.036204,-0.076551,0.004924,-0.026216,-0.00282,-0.005769,0.002863,0.023508,0.003248,-0.001199,0.001635,0.004404,-0.006379,0.000796,0.002347,-0.003294,-0.001634,-0.005503,-0.005989,0.000866,0.00037,-0.001205,0.003952
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R43,0.111547,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.067184,0.003693,-0.025379,0.00423,-0.006,-0.007976,0.029704,0.003248,0.011839,-0.014717,0.006881,-0.017101,-0.000663,0.017341,0.003167,0.005028,-0.000625,-0.010981,0.010881,-0.003204,0.010001,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R436,0.119514,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.044897,0.00954,-0.015897,-0.00376,-0.008307,0.001841,0.014214,0.003573,0.005695,-0.004162,-0.011285,-0.011536,0.00716,0.02021,0,0.00352,0.001626,-0.000873,0.010881,0.001109,0.003615,-0.000479
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R44,0.117238,0.167562,-0.028284,-0.070737,0.004616,-0.019522,0.001175,-0.006692,-0.003886,0.034807,0.006333,0.008243,-0.013379,0.001651,-0.009229,-0.004508,0.017211,-0.00038,-0.003268,-0.007003,-0.000873,0.000618,0.001479,0.008314,0.001437
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R1548,0.112685,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.044574,-0.004616,-0.021196,0.004935,0.000231,-0.005113,0.012392,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.000892,-0.003303,-0.006515,0.006364,-0.000261,0.007475,0.002137,-0.00988,-0.013726,0.004822,0.008627,0.006025,-0.005149
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R128,0.118376,0.150298,-0.033187,-0.052326,-0.006463,-0.022311,0.001175,-0.011538,-0.018612,0.018953,0.005034,0.006294,-0.007433,0.014588,-0.019137,-0.012994,-0.007171,0.004561,0.003897,-0.013256,-0.003244,0.000618,0.005423,-0.000361,-0.008622
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R123,0.10927,0.146236,-0.032432,-0.056202,0.008617,-0.030957,0.009635,-0.007615,-0.011862,0.025331,0.007307,0.006444,-0.007284,-0.000413,-0.012486,0.009944,0.015385,-0.005068,-0.004148,-0.010505,0.000499,0.003586,-0.004807,0.001807,0.001197
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R114,0.112685,0.146236,-0.018102,-0.051357,0.007078,-0.010319,-0.005405,-0.010384,0.000614,0.008565,-0.00341,0.01094,-0.003865,0.001376,-0.006107,-0.013789,-0.009648,0.005194,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.004367,0.006677,0.006532,0.003976,-0.000239
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R115,0.105855,0.145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952

My qpAdm .ind file if you want to check the sample ID's
https://www.mediafire.com/file/w2icozps2prs847/v54.1_HO_public.ind/file

G25 calculator coordinates:
(You are not supposed to use them all at the same time in every model, to avoid overfits)

0.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc,0.1168583,0.1615369,-0.0058076,-0.0628773,0.0249687,-0.0261414,-0.0013631,-0.0052459,0.0069129,0.0428376,0.0066904,0.0106906,-0.017542,-0.0000091,-0.0188199,-0.0084416,0.0124039,0.0023565,0.0093184,-0.0054525,-0.0077447,0.0029513,-0.0023169,0.0010363,-0.0007903

8.South_Slavic_MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine,0.1261538,0.1409895,0.0422375,0.016796,0.0282102,0.0101332,0.0027025,0.0046537,-0.0020453,0.0018832,-0.0036267,-0.0018983,-0.001115,0.0106197,-0.0118078,-0.0003758,0.0085837,0.0021747,0.005866,-0.0023762,-0.0059478,-0.0017723,0.0012532,-0.0013253,-0.0015368

1.Italy_Rome_Republic_900-600bc,0.1286202,0.1535484,0.037863,-0.015827,0.0448698,-0.0064146,0.001598,-0.0025382,0.0229068,0.0411488,-0.000812,0.0125588,-0.0214072,-0.0092484,-0.0055102,0.0001326,0.0079272,0.0023818,0.007542,-0.0002752,-0.001123,0.0032396,-0.00106,-0.0052296,-0.0036882

0.Antiquity_Greek(Aegean-West_Anatolia)1-200AD,0.1087752,0.1504308,-0.0297105,-0.0637433,0.0003746,-0.021996,0.0003167,-0.0056285,-0.0070783,0.0216544,0.0041091,0.0038183,-0.0051902,0.0016276,-0.0128522,-0.003724,0.005771,0.0007271,0.0029349,-0.0048936,-0.0040634,0.0032364,-0.0015594,0.0021323,-0.0005102

1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc:HRV_Anc,0.1229285,0.1472515,0.0367695,-0.0001615,0.0344675,0.004044,-0.0015275,0.0001155,0.0017385,0.023326,-0.0051965,0.0097415,-0.0159065,-0.016859,-0.0041395,0.0043095,0.0215785,-0.0039275,0.005091,-0.0023135,-0.000187,0.003895,-0.001171,0.010363,-0.006287

2.Anatolia_Center_Phrygian_650BC,0.112116,0.1502985,-0.0352605,-0.0734825,-0.008771,-0.0262155,0.00188,-0.0084225,-0.0191225,0.016401,0.0060895,0.004571,-0.0077305,0.000757,-0.011672,-0.007359,0.009192,-0.0003165,0.0050905,-0.000688,-0.001123,0.0052555,-0.003574,0.0025905,0.0037125

3.Levant_Sidon_1800BC,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028


5.Armenia_Aghitu_20BC,0.106614,0.133373,-0.0569453,-0.0498497,-0.033442,-0.0116203,0.001175,-0.0043073,-0.0338827,-0.0089293,0.007903,-0.0019483,-0.0030227,-0.00211,-0.001131,-0.0111817,-0.0073017,-0.000211,0.001173,-0.0032517,0.005116,0.000247,-0.003985,-0.0049803,0.005708
5.Caucasus_BlackSea_Samsun_B_150BC,0.106994,0.131003,-0.065242,-0.029716,-0.047393,-0.000558,0.004465,-0.005307,-0.06463,-0.027335,-0.001624,0.012739,-0.026908,0.00812,0.003257,-0.032617,0.005867,-0.013682,-0.005154,0.016133,0.013601,0.004081,0.004314,-0.016147,-0.007784

8.Germanic_Langobardic_550AD:Collegno+szolad,0.1325522,0.1322035,0.0656531,0.0600193,0.0384686,0.0196238,0.0060246,0.009608,0.002566,-0.0054341,-0.0055065,0.0031064,-0.0101088,-0.0064433,0.024331,0.0029049,-0.0108337,0.002384,0.0057935,0.0038996,0.0086437,0.0070144,0.0006722,0.0153362,0.0009362
8.Slavic_RUS_Sunghir_1100AD,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868

9.North_African_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224


9.Turkic_Oghuz_ROU_Ploiesti_1000AD,0.078538,-0.177718,0.06675,0.028747,-0.053856,-0.006693,0.012691,0.014307,-0.007567,-0.011845,-0.007795,-0.005245,0.001784,-0.01913,0.001086,-0.008221,-0.001304,0.005321,0.00176,0.005002,-0.015473,0.009027,-0.007641,-0.000723,0.005029

 

[Francesco]

Just some random thoughts on the subject.
1. Unfortunately we don't have many Iron Age Greeks, but, as I wrote somewhere else, I suspect that they might fall between Myceneans and modern day Greek Islanders/Aegean Imperial inhabitants
2. The levels of Langobard ancestry seems a bit too high for Northern Italy and expecially for Tuscany, even considering the yDNA of these regions. Maybe it's due to some samples in the Langobard cluster wich were already southern European admixed?
3.I'm not an expert on the subject, so forgive me, but doesn't using too similar populations screw the model?

 

[bigsnake49]

Just some random thoughts on the subject.
1. Unfortunately we don't have many Iron Age Greeks, but, as I wrote somewhere else, I suspect that they might fall between Myceneans and modern day Greek Islanders/Aegean Imperial inhabitants
2. The levels of Langobard ancestry seems a bit too high for Northern Italy and expecially for Tuscany, even considering the yDNA of these regions. Maybe it's due to some samples in the Langobard cluster wich were already southern European admixed?
3.I'm not an expert on the subject, so forgive me, but doesn't using too similar populations screw the model?

Yep on #3. It has been explained to the OP many times. It is also good practice not to have so many populations in the mix so to speak.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Just some random thoughts on the subject.
1. Unfortunately we don't have many Iron Age Greeks, but, as I wrote somewhere else, I suspect that they might fall between Myceneans and modern day Greek Islanders/Aegean Imperial inhabitants
2. The levels of Langobard ancestry seems a bit too high for Northern Italy and expecially for Tuscany, even considering the yDNA of these regions. Maybe it's due to some samples in the Langobard cluster wich were already southern European admixed?
3.I'm not an expert on the subject, so forgive me, but doesn't using too similar populations screw the model?

1. I made some simulations by removing Slavic of mainland Greeks, obviously i can't really know the actual profile of Pre-Slavic mainlanders, but they seem to have ranged from Calabrian in the North to Kos/Dodecanese/Cypriot like to the South. It's also confirmed about the Northern part from a leaked PCA about Hellenistic Greeks.

2. Possibly. Can you suggest a good Germanic proxy? Overall North Italians don't seem to have as much Germanic admix as some people claim.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Yep on #3. It has been explained to the OP many times. It is also good practice not to have so many populations in the mix so to speak.

And i explained 1000 times that the model does not imply direct ancestry but they only show the shifts.

G25 was made to tell apart related populations. I did not just run these models with all the proxies included, i had a separate model for Italians and separate one for Greeks. Actually using mixed proxies can help on G25 because you can use it to just detect the "excess shifts" compared to that main proxy and get an idea of the main shifts.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Just some random thoughts on the subject.
1. Unfortunately we don't have many Iron Age Greeks, but, as I wrote somewhere else, I suspect that they might fall between Myceneans and modern day Greek Islanders/Aegean Imperial inhabitants
2. The levels of Langobard ancestry seems a bit too high for Northern Italy and expecially for Tuscany, even considering the yDNA of these regions. Maybe it's due to some samples in the Langobard cluster wich were already southern European admixed?
3.I'm not an expert on the subject, so forgive me, but doesn't using too similar populations screw the model?

Langobard/Germanic compensates the ancestry from the Aegean. Langobard/Germanic ancestry may be too high because Aegean ancestry may be too high.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Langobard/Germanic compensates the ancestry from the Aegean. Langobard/Germanic ancestry may be too high because Aegean ancestry may be too high.

Which ancestry from the Aegean would cause such a Germanic shift? There was no such population in the Aegean before the Slavs to cause a shift like that. Unless you mean its overfitting Aegean and Germanic and overshifting them both? It does not look like an overfit.

We can actually see in the models Germanic going up and Imperial Greek going down. It does not seem to be what you said.

Here are some models with much less proxies. They show the same thing.

But then you get an actual overfit with Mycenaean at the Italian samples with higher Germanic shift, once you add distance control you can see that its an overfit.

With distance control

Obviously the models with the more proxies i first posted were better. Since they detect the excess shifts proportionally compared to the Imperial Greek shift.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Which ancestry from the Aegean would cause such a Germanic shift? There was no such population in the Aegean before the Slavs to cause a shift like that. Unless you mean its overfitting Aegean and Germanic and overshifting them both? It does not look like an overfit.

We can actually see in the models Germanic going up and Imperial Greek going down in the 300-700ad samples. It does not seem to be what you said.

I was referring to the Italians and "Antiquity_Greek". If Antiquity_Greek is too high it raises Langobard/Germanic ancestry in Italians.

As far as I am concerned, Italian history from the Roman Empire onward is too complicated to be simplified with qpAdm or G25. I know too little about Greek history from the imperial period onward, so I refrain.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I was referring to the Italians and "Antiquity_Greek". If Antiquity_Greek is too high it raises Langobard/Germanic ancestry.

It does not, it actually does the opposite. When Antiquity Greek goes up then Germanic goes down. What can cause too much Germanic shift is Mycenaean, that causes overfits sometimes.

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How can i make the pictures smaller?

 

[Pax Augusta]

It does not, it actually does the opposite. When Antiquity Greek goes up then Germanic goes down. What can cause too much Germanic shift is Mycenaean, that causes overfits sometimes.



How can i make the pictures smaller?

I can't follow you, you and I speak two different languages. At least for the Italians, these models you propose make little sense.

 

[eupator]

Relevant leak from upcoming Hellenistic Macedonia samples, it's a leak so not confirmed, the samples show heavy Anatolian overlap.

 

[Francesco]

2. Possibly. Can you suggest a good Germanic proxy? Overall North Italians don't seem to have as much Germanic admix as some people claim.

Unfortunately I can't. As far as I know we have two groups of Lombard samples, one from Collegno, in northern Italy, and another one in Hungary. Interestingly, they both show a bulk of samples that is, unsurprisingly, central European like, but they also show a non negligible amount of samples that already plot near modern northern Italian, while others even plot with modern Aegean people. These should probably be removed from the equation if we want to detect a more realistic germanic input in Italy.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I can't follow you, you and I speak two different languages.

You said that if Antiquity Greek is too high then Germanic is raised too. But its not according to the models. I thought you claimed that antiquity Greek and Germanic are overfitting on the opposite directions? But it does not seem to be the case. Or is that not what you were saying?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Relevant leak from upcoming Hellenistic Macedonia samples, it's a leak so not confirmed, the samples show heavy Anatolian overlap.

Yes, this is the leak i was talking about Hellenistic Greeks in Thessaloniki which seem to plot like South Italians? I could probably test it by making a PCA and checking where South Italians plot compared to MKD_IA and Anatolia

 

[Pax Augusta]

It does not, it actually does the opposite. Germanic goes down when Antiquity goes up. What can cause too much Germanic is Mycenaean, that causes overfits sometimes.How can i make the pictures smaller?

Let's see if you can understand me that way. Your models make no sense historically, because they imply a massive Greek and North Germanic presence throughout Italy, from the Alps to Sicily.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Let's see if you can understand me that way. Your models make no sense historically, because they imply a massive Greek and North Germanic presence throughout Italy, from the Alps to Sicily.

My models make absolutely 100% sense because historically West Anatolian Greeks mass migrated to Italy. There are even poets of that time complaining about the mass influx of Greeks. Italians also mixed with each other which is how the Imperial Greek admixture spread to the North even more.

It is absolutely impossible for Italians not to have massive Greek Aegean admix. Both historically and both genetically, we see that they simply have a massive Greek shift that did not exist in Iron age and classical times, for example the Himera samples in Sicily.

The Third Satire is an aggressive attack on the internationalization of the city Rome. Juvenal, as most satirists, writes from a conservative perspective. In this etext, the first few lines, in which Juvenal describes his friend's Umbricius' decision to leave Rome for Cumae, are omitted. The text takes up where Umbricius begins to speak.

It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate; and yet how small the proportion even of the dregs of Greece! Syrian Orontes has long since flowed into the Tiber, and brought with it its language, morals, and the crooked harps with the flute-player, and its national tambourines, and girls made to stand for hire at the Circus. Go thither, you who fancy a barbarian harlot with embroidered turban. That rustic of yours, Quirinus, takes his Greek supper-cloak, and wears Greek prizes on his neck besmeared with Ceroma. One forsaking steep Sicyon, another Amydon, a third from Andros, another from Samos, another again from Tralles, or Alabanda, swarm to Esquiliae, and the hill called from its osiers, destined to be the very vitals, and future lords of great houses. These have a quick wit, desperate impudence, a ready speech, more rapidly fluent even than Isaeus. Tell me what you fancy he is? He has brought with him whatever character you wish---grammarian rhetorician, geometer, painter, trainer, soothsayer, ropedancer, physician, wizard---he knows everything. Bid the hungry Greekling go to heaven! He'll go. In short, it was neither Moor, nor Sarmatian, nor Thracian, that took wings, but one born in the heart of Athens. Shall I not shun these men's purple robes? Shall this fellow take precedence of me in signing his name, and recline pillowed on a more honorable couch than I, though imported to Rome by the same wind that brought the plums and figs? Does it then go so utterly for nothing, that my infancy inhaled the air of Aventine, nourished on the Sabine berry? Why add that this nation, most deeply versed in flattery, praises the conversation of an ignorant, the face of a hideously ugly friend, and compares some weak fellow's crane-like neck to the brawny shoulders of Hercules, holding Antaeus far from his mother Earth: and is in raptures at the squeaking voice, not a whit superior in sound to that of the cock as he bites the hen.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/juvenal3.asp

 

[Pax Augusta]

My models make absolutely 100% sense because historically West Anatolian Greeks mass migrated to Italy. There are even poets of that time complaining about the mass influx of Greeks.

It is absolutely impossible for Italians not to have massive Greek Aegean admix.

The ancient Greeks were a mixed bag themselves.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

The ancient Greeks were a mixed bag themselves.

Of course. They were a mix of Aegean farmers, Anatolia C/BA and Paleo Balkan.

Some of the Logkas shift in early samples could be because of Balkan HG stuff i guess. I'm just showing the shifts here, not direct ancestry.

 

[eupator]

Eastern Romans, Western Romans, we are all brothers from another mother.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Unfortunately I can't. As far as I know we have two groups of Lombard samples, one from Collegno, in northern Italy, and another one in Hungary. Interestingly, they both show a bulk of samples that is, unsurprisingly, central European like, but they also show a non negligible amount of samples that already plot near modern northern Italian, while others even plot with modern Aegean people. These should probably be removed from the equation if we want to detect a more realistic germanic input in Italy.

The bulk of the Lombards with 100% Langobard ancestry was northern European