Genetic make-up of Europe

[ultralars]

So is the statistics mentioned in the first post outdated/wrong or accurate?

 

[Templar]

Maciamo why isn't Bosnia on the paleolithic/Cro-magnon list. It has the highest rate of Haplogroup I (over 60%).

 

[onslo]

Thank you,Maciamo! I 1 split from I haplogroup about 20,000 y.a. in Scandinavia.Y-DNA I1 descended from a SINGLE ancestor who lived 10,000 y.a. I 1 are indigenous people of EUROPE, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon.I read this on eupedia.com today.What if I am I1 (IGENEA test) M253+

P259- P15- P109- M72- M69-​

M286- M227- M21- M201- L91- L42- L30- L22- L211- L141- L140- L14- L13- , Is this VIKING,GOTHS or GERMANIC?

 

[mihaitzateo]

Your datas about Romania are pretty wrong.
No ideea about whole country,but in next two tables you will see that Romania got M170 between 38.9% (no one made detailed tests about what branches are,but very probabily most frequent is I2A2) to almost 50% (from which 40% is P37.2,or I2) in Moldavia,but not in extreme north of Moldavia (romanian Bukovina).
http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=981561349&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=981561349.pdf

However,no one made tests on people from Bukovina,which are known to have a high percentage of blue eyes,no one made tests in north Ardeal or Apuseni Mountains and so on.No one made tests in Buzau county either,where a gothic treasure was found (called Pietroasele treasure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietroasele_Treasure ,which includes a ring written in elder futhark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Pietroassa).In Buzau mountains some historians are telling that goths ran and hide in the dense forests here,from Roman empire army.
To state that Romania got 13% J2 on paternal line is just pure nonsense,what data have you used to say this?

It was only 1 place from Romania where it was found about 16% J2 and some 2% of some oher clades of J,in some village near Ploiesti,but that is not concludent for the rest of Romania.If you look in same document,in romanians near Constanta J2 was found only in about 6.5% percentage.If you look in the other document,in romanians from Neamt and Buhusi if you sum all clades of J found that is only 5.7% (seems that all branches of J found here are from J2).So I would say whole J in Romania is rather about 6-7% maximum,not really think J2 reaches 16%.

 

[sparkey]

Thank you,Maciamo! I 1 split from I haplogroup about 20,000 y.a. in Scandinavia.Y-DNA I1 descended from a SINGLE ancestor who lived 10,000 y.a. I 1 are indigenous people of EUROPE, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon.I read this on eupedia.com today.What if I am I1 (IGENEA test) M253+
P259- P15- P109- M72- M69-
M286- M227- M21- M201- L91- L42- L30- L22- L211- L141- L140- L14- L13- , Is this VIKING,GOTHS or GERMANIC?

Most I1 L22- are Z58+, that's a more useful marker to test than a lot of those that you list. Z58+ is typical of West Germanic peoples (English people, Dutch people, etc.) and usually indicates Anglo-Saxon ancestry if you're an American unaware of your deep ancestry.

But it's also possible that you're L22- Z58-, and you're the rare Celtic type of I1 (I1*-AS4) or L22- Z58- Z68+, which is usually tied to East Germanic peoples, like the Goths. There are also some more rare possibilities. In short, we can't guarantee what your background is just by that data, other than "probably not Viking." Most Viking I1 would have been L22+.

 

[Dale Cooper]

Most Paleolithic European (Cro-Magnon) countries (I1 + I2)

1. Croatia : about 51% of Y-DNA
2. Sweden : about 44%
3. Norway & Bulgaria : about 37%
4. Denmark : about 36%
5. Serbia : about 35%
6. Iceland : about 33%
7. Belarus & Finland : about 29%
8. Netherlands & Hungary : about 25%
9. Czech Republic : about 24%
10. England, Germany & Romania : about 21%
11. Belgium : about 20%

Well, this means that Croatians are by genetic THE oldest Europeans

 

[Gosh]

Yes, they are.

 

[Gosh]

Bulgarian data from the post #1 about I2a1 and about I in general aren't in accordance with the data from the table.

 

[Knovas]

The oldest Europeans regarding mesolithic Y-DNA preservation, which no way means the oldest Europeans as whole, neither by genetic. There are many other factors, as MtDNA, autosomal features, languaje, traditions...not that simple friends.

 

[Eochaidh]

What about Bryan Sykes:

In his 2006 book Blood of the Isles (published in the United States and Canada as Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland), Sykes examines British genetic "clans". He presents evidence from mitochondrial DNA, inherited by both sexes from their mothers, and the Y chromosome, inherited by men from their fathers, for the following points:

Yes, notice that both books are from 2006. The realization that R1b did not originate in Iberia is since circa 2008, I believe.

I need a book and was about the buy Sykes' book from Amazon, but I checked here first. Is the consensus that it is out of date already? It's hard to keep up.

 

[Taranis]

I need a book and was about the buy Sykes' book from Amazon, but I checked here first. Is the consensus that it is out of date already? It's hard to keep up.

Let me put it this way: it may certainly be interesting to see how much of what he actually wrote there is actually still tenable today, but you're probably not going to learn anything from the book that you don't already know from hanging around here. I just realized that the post you quoted by me is actually two years old. A lot has changed in the meantime. For instance, before we actually had sufficient Neolithic samples, it was still viable to assume that for instance R1b was Neolithic. Some people even suggested (after Treilles and Derenburg) that Ötzi might have been R1b (yet he also turned out to be G2, which was the most likely thing to happen).

 

[Eochaidh]

Let me put it this way: it may certainly be interesting to see how much of what he actually wrote there is actually still tenable today, but you're probably not going to learn anything from the book that you don't already know from hanging around here. I just realized that the post you quoted by me is actually two years old. A lot has changed in the meantime. For instance, before we actually had sufficient Neolithic samples, it was still viable to assume that for instance R1b was Neolithic. Some people even suggested (after Treilles and Derenburg) that Ötzi might have been R1b (yet he also turned out to be G2, which was the most likely thing to happen).

Thanks. It's amazing how fast knowledge in this field is changing.

Maciamo used to have a list of four good books in this area on the main page. They are all very good, especially the second time through (the three that I read at least).
The Horse, Wheel and Language.
The 10,000 Year Explosion.
The Selfish Gene.
I don't have the fourth.

And Sparkey recommended Albion's Seed, which is also good.

I may as well go back to the old Irish Manuscripts for a while and on that note, I thought that I would post some links to them here, in case others may be interested. They reside on Archive.org in several formats. One format is on-line readable and another is a very large PDF download. These aren't scanned as text as the CELT project is, but are rather scanned as bitmaps into PDF files from the original books which accounts for their size. Most of these aren't Google scans, which are black & white, but rather a beautiful sepia.

Various Irish Scans as PDF files

Annála Ríoghachta na hÉireann
I: http://www.archive.org/download/annalarioghachta01ocle/annalarioghachta01ocle.pdf
II: http://ia700307.us.archive.org/32/items/annalsofkingdomo02ocleuoft/annalsofkingdomo02ocleuoft.pdf
III: http://ia600402.us.archive.org/30/items/annalsofkingdomo03ocleuoft/annalsofkingdomo03ocleuoft.pdf
IV: http://www.archive.org/download/annalarioghachta04ocle/annalarioghachta04ocle.pdf
V: http://ia600504.us.archive.org/2/items/annalsofkingdomo05ocleuoft/annalsofkingdomo05ocleuoft.pdf
VI: http://ia700305.us.archive.org/32/items/annalsofkingdomo06ocle/annalsofkingdomo06ocle.pdf
VII: http://ia600200.us.archive.org/17/items/annalsofkingdomo07ocleuoft/annalsofkingdomo07ocleuoft.pdf

Three Fragments – MacFirbisigh
http://www.archive.org/download/annalsofirelandt00bibl/annalsofirelandt00bibl.pdf

Annals of Ulster
I: http://www.archive.org/download/annalauladhannal01royauoft/annalauladhannal01royauoft.pdf
II: http://www.archive.org/download/annalauladhannal02royauoft/annalauladhannal02royauoft.pdf
III: http://www.archive.org/download/annalauladhannal03royauoft/annalauladhannal03royauoft.pdf
IV: http://ia700502.us.archive.org/35/items/annalauladhannal04magu/annalauladhannal04magu.pdf

John O’Hart’s Irish pedigrees; or, The origin and stem of the Irish nation (1892)
I: http://ia700303.us.archive.org/17/items/irishpedigreesor011892ohar/irishpedigreesor011892ohar.pdf
II: http://ia600304.us.archive.org/7/it...1892byuohar/irishpedigreesor021892byuohar.pdf

The topographical poems of John O'Dubhagain and Giolla na naomh O'Huidhrin (1862)
http://ia600308.us.archive.org/12/items/topographicalpoe00odon/topographicalpoe00odon.pdf

Keating's general history of Ireland. (1861)
http://ia600208.us.archive.org/6/items/keatingsgeneralh00keat/keatingsgeneralh00keat.pdf

The Annals of Clonmacnoise, being annals of Ireland from the earliest period to A.D. 1408 (1896)
http://ia700309.us.archive.org/20/items/annalsofclonmacn00mage/annalsofclonmacn00mage.pdf

The annals of Tigernach [being annals of Ireland, 807 B.C. to A.D. 1178] (1895)
http://ia600502.us.archive.org/21/items/annalsoftigernac00stokuoft/annalsoftigernac00stokuoft.pdf

Life of Saint Columba, founder of Hy. Written by Adamnan. Edited by William Reeves (1874)
http://ia700202.us.archive.org/3/items/lifeofsaintcolum00adamuoft/lifeofsaintcolum00adamuoft.pdf

The genealogies, tribes, and customs of Hy-Fiachrach, commonly called O'Dowda's country : now first published from the Book of Lecan, in the library of the Royal Irish Academy, and from the genealogical manuscript of Duald Mac Firbis, in the library of Lord Roden (1844) http://ia600202.us.archive.org/19/items/genealogiestribe00macf/genealogiestribe00macf.pdf

The annals of Loch Cé : a chronicle of Irish affairs from A.D. 1014 to A.D. 1590 (1871)
http://ia700506.us.archive.org/1/items/annalsoflochcc01hennuoft/annalsoflochcc01hennuoft.pdf

Chronicum Scotorum : a chronicle of Irish affairs from the earliest times to A.D. 1135 ; with a supplement, containing the events from 1141 to 1150 (1866)
http://ia600409.us.archive.org/5/items/chronicumscotoru00macfuoft/chronicumscotoru00macfuoft.pdf

The ancient Irish epic tale Táin bó Cúalnge, "The Cualnge cattle-raid," now for the first time done entire into English out of the Irish of the Book of Leinster and allied manuscripts (1914)
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924026824981

Transactions of the Ossianic Society (1853)
Vol I: http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsofos01ossi
Vol II: http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsofos02ossi
Vol III: http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsofos03ossi
Vol IV: http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsofos40ossi
Vol V: http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsofos05ossi

An historical account of the Diocese of Down and Connor, ancient and modern (1878)
Vol I: http://www.archive.org/stream/historicalaccoun01olav
Vol II: http://www.archive.org/stream/historicalaccoun02olav
Vol III: http://www.archive.org/stream/historicalaccoun03olav
Vol IV: http://www.archive.org/stream/historicalaccoun04olav

Eoin MacNeill Papers read for the Royal Irish Academy (January 1, 1909) PDF format
http://www.archive.org/download/papersirishacad00macnuoft/papersirishacad00macnuoft.pdf

Leabhar Chlainne Suibhne : an account of the MacSweeney families in Ireland, with pedigrees (1920)
http://www.archive.org/stream/leabharchlainnes00walsuoft

 

[Dale Cooper]

So people, what do you think about video I've made and uploaded to youtube? here it is:

As "non-european" HG's I've named HG's such as J1, Q, T & H... means all of HG's which are present in Europe just in last 1000 or 2000 years... so don't take this term "european and noneuropean" as somethin racist, I hope you understand

 

[Taranis]

So people, what do you think about video I've made and uploaded to youtube? here it is:

As "non-european" HG's I've named HG's such as J1, Q, T & H... means all of HG's which are present in Europe just in last 1000 or 2000 years... so don't take this term "european and noneuropean" as somethin racist, I hope you understand

You don't want your video to be taken as racist or xenophobic, but one really has to wonder what message you want to convey. That most of Europe has 'native' Haplogroups?! Well, that is view completely wrong, no matter how you define "European" and "non-European" here:

There's a number of issues in particular I completely disagree with:

R1b and R1a are decisively not Mesolithic. The oldest find of R1a thus far is from the (Copper Age) Corded Ware Culture. We *still* don't know when R1b entered Europe, but the oldest find of R1b thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (ca. 1000 BC), so R1b is also either from the Copper or Bronze Age.

Regarding J2, it's still unclear how old it is. It has failed thus far to turn up in any Neolithic site.

Haplogroup E1b1b, at least some subclades of it, may have been in Europe since the Mesolithic (at least in southern Europe).

In much of Europe, J1 and T are most probably originally Neolithic, and are thought to have travelled alongside of Haplogroup G2.

Even with the "native" (Mesolithic or Paleolithic) Haplogroups (Haplogroup I) it's clear that their present-day frequencies are the result of later events.

 

[Carlos]

It would be interesting to stop the term PLS: Immigrants when referring to home Neolithic haplogroups in Europe. Is it already existed in the Neolithic European national identity? I feel out of place.

 

[Knovas]

Very well explained Taranis. Also, again, if we focus in genetics, the haplogroup distribution don't tell us how European are populations. Doing diferent autosomal analysis would be the best option to get an idea.

 

[sparkey]

R1b and R1a are decisively not Mesolithic. The oldest find of R1a thus far is from the (Copper Age) Corded Ware Culture. We *still* don't know when R1b entered Europe, but the oldest find of R1b thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (ca. 1000 BC), so R1b is also either from the Copper or Bronze Age.

Overall, I agree strongly with you, Taranis, although I'd note that it's still quite possible that R1a is Mesolithic at the far Eastern edge of Europe (like at the Dnieper), so it's probably not technically incorrect to call it "Mesolithic." R1b is almost certainly later, especially R1b L11+... although I admit we know less about R1b-ht35 in particular.

I think a takeaway point is that Dale's classification is almost certainly wrong, but it's difficult to correct based only on what we know now. It's also difficult to make unified assertions about "Europe" as opposed to regions of Europe, since, for example, it's been difficult to show Haplogroup I to be ancient outside of Western and Central Europe.

 

[Dale Cooper]

Maybe your view of this video is "wrong" in terms of "non european" and "european" term I used in video but that doesn't change the fact that overall video shows things how they are in Europe considering genetics of european nations, let's forget about "european" and "non-european", video shows which HG is dominant amongst various nations and from which period of time we can trace it in Europe. Ofcourse, we may call this "european" and "non-european" term in video as racist, but than again you can call somethin "racist" in every aspect of everyday life, I said clearly that message of that two terms isn't racist but to show HG's of Europe which are present here for 6000 or more years, and when you sum all of informations from video, you get that picture, without any racist "agenda" or anything similar to that.

Let's not see "racism" on every corner of life, that's somethin multi-culturalism is teaching you every day on TV. Maybe it's not "politicaly correct" thing to do anything about european heritage, especially genetics, but you know what? I don't give a damn about political correctnes as long as I don't insult anyone else, and if someone is insulted with this (and have no reason to be), that's not my problem.

 

[Dale Cooper]

Maciamo what do you think about this table I've made:

Most Greco-Neolithic countries in Europe (E1b1b + J2 + G2a):

1. Greece: around 51%
2. Albania: around 48%
3. Bulgaria: around 45%
4. Rep. Macedonia: around 41%
5. Italy: around 37%
6. Romania & Austria: around 30%
7. Portugal: around 29%
8. Serbia: around 27%
9. Hungary: around 25%
10. Bosnia: around 22%

 

[Templar]

Well, this means that Croatians are by genetic THE oldest Europeans

Not if Bosnia is included.