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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Demetrios said:
Probably no in terms of proto-Greeks, bearing in mind that we find the earliest examples located near the sea or rivers, not in the mainland, suggesting maritime expansion. Indeed the paper i shared has the following to say, "As a foreign element, it was adopted by and assimilated into the local EBA cultural environments and dynamics, possibly through contacts with cultures in the West Balkans and the Adriatic, or because of the arrival of Balkan populations on the Adriatic coast. This suggests a development of a commercial network for controlling access to the metal producing regions or to the circulation networks of metals and their finished products, and the establishment of small, newly developed social groups at key sites, from where they could trade, these groups being connected through family and economic ties with other local or foreign groups. This may explain the first occurence of tumuli in sites in Western Greece and the eastern Peloponnese, such as Lefkas, Olympia and Lerna, which served as intermediary stops in various exchange networks embracing the Aegean, Anatolia, the central Mediterranean, the Balkans and the Adriatic.". Later examples though are evidently Mycenaean. Plus, this aforementioned contact with the West Balkans and the Adriatic during the EBA, is most probably with the Vučedol culture, with which appears to have been trade relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. Some had even suggested that the "Megaron" was adopted by Mycenaeans from Vučedol, but there is evidence which show that Megarons were common in Greece from the Neolithic. Look for example this small presentation of the settlement of Dimini in Greece, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odfqc3gvMyY.

But your question is out of context in terms of the paper you shared. The tumuli of northern Greece, namely the ones of Epirus are dated to the LBA, and the paper you shared clearly states in the "Conclusion", "Epirus is out of the picture during this period and remains so until the LBA. The tumuli of Epirus seem to have more affinities with southern Greek tumuli and exhibit characteristics that are probably archaizing for LH southern Greece (twin vessels, apsidal/horse-shoe shaped constructions, orthostatic periboloi).". Plus, taking into account that these respective tumuli were unearthed in Ephyra and Pogoni, the former of them being the main Mycenaean centre in Epirus, shows that these were certainly a Mycenaean influence. Here is also a map with all known Mycenaean sites in Epirus, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg.
Click to expand...

I am not discussing Epirus or anything, I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you related that with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no? Simple questions.


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torzio said:
ok, so you see the area of the 3 fingers as north east
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Daco-Thracian_peoples_and_tribes

So, epirotes and macedonians spoke a North-West Doric language/dialect ? ........................then does that not make them similar
Click to expand...
The area of the three fingers, namely the peninsula of Chalkidiki was not originally part of Macedon, but of Ionian colonists from the island of Euboea. The map of this article is wrong in terms of Macedon. For one Paeonians and Macedonians were different people, second Chalkidiki as aforementioned was mainly Ionic, and third Macedon of approximately 500 BCE encompassed this region, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK9HqU2XsAAtHFT?format=jpg&name=large, and later expanded north and east, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Expansion_of_Macedon_%28English%29.svg. Macedonians did speak North-West Doric, but a different dialect with an Aeolic and Phrygian substrate. North-West Doric dialects were very widespread in Greece as you saw in the map i shared. You also find them in Aetolia, Acarnania, Phocis, and Elis (Peloponnese). They all spoke a similar dialect, but were considered different Greek groups.
 
blevins13 said:
I am not discussing Epirus or anything, I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you related that with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no? Simple questions.


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Click to expand...
Per Georgiev the proto-Greek language is placed in this region, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png. For one this region represents a very high concentration of original Greek toponyms, in contrast with the rest of southern Greece. For example look at these related maps, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTIDIo8hI/AAAAAAAAAfM/NcHThpLRKcs/s1600/Pre-Greek-01.jpg, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTZ8EJjsI/AAAAAAAAAfU/0YMO5GmnnX0/s1600/Pre-Greek-02.jpg, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTvxQUpdI/AAAAAAAAAfc/yUhHOgKu1bA/s1600/Pre-Greek-03.jpg. Many of these probably represent an earlier IE Anatolian presence in Greece, and not simply Neolithic, as has been also hinted by some ancient authors.
And also, we have accounts of Phrygians/Brygians living in the broader region of Macedonia (Greece), southern North Macedonia, and Albania. Phrygian is considered very close to Greek and is thought of being part of the same Indo-European branch that migrated in the southern Balkans and gave rise to Greek. Therefore, both of their respective proto-languages, namely proto-Phrygian and proto-Greek, should have evolved close to each other, and this common region appears to be northwestern Greece. The fact that Doric is considered as the most conservative of the Greek dialects also hints to that, because Doric migrated south from this proto-Greek region, around the time of the Bronze Age collapse.
 
Demetrios said:
Per Georgiev the proto-Greek language is placed in this region, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png. For one this region represents a very high concentration of original Greek toponyms, in contrast with the rest of southern Greece. For example look at these related maps, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTIDIo8hI/AAAAAAAAAfM/NcHThpLRKcs/s1600/Pre-Greek-01.jpg, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTZ8EJjsI/AAAAAAAAAfU/0YMO5GmnnX0/s1600/Pre-Greek-02.jpg, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTvxQUpdI/AAAAAAAAAfc/yUhHOgKu1bA/s1600/Pre-Greek-03.jpg. Many of these probably represent an earlier IE Anatolian presence in Greece, and not simply Neolithic, as has been also hinted by some ancient authors.
And also, we have accounts of Phrygians/Brygians living in the broader region of Macedonia (Greece), southern North Macedonia, and Albania. Phrygian is considered very close to Greek and is thought of being part of the same Indo-European branch that migrated in the southern Balkans and gave rise to Greek. Therefore, both of their respective proto-languages, namely proto-Phrygian and proto-Greek, should have evolved close to each other, and this common region appears to be northwestern Greece. The fact that Doric is considered as the most conservative of the Greek dialects also hints to that, because Doric migrated south from this proto-Greek region, around the time of the Bronze Age collapse.
Click to expand...

Interesting info, but still your point of view is not clear to me, in relation with tumulus burials.

I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you relate them with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no?


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blevins13 said:
Interesting info, but still your point of view is not clear to me, in relation with tumulus burials.

I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you relate them with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...
This still comes down to hypotheses mate. I personally don't relate the proto-Greek group with tumuli burials, mostly because the conservative subgroup of Dorians were cremating their dead, and because we don't find early examples in either of the aforementioned proto-Greek and proto-Phrygian regions. But that doesn't mean they themselves aren't related with EBA Balkan cultures such as Vučedol. There are many hypotheses in terms of how Graeco-Phrygians ended up in the Hellenic peninsula. Some even suggest a Carpathian intermediate stop, while others an Anatolian route and therefore intermediate stop. It really depends. But as i said above as well, i don't consider the earliest examples of tumuli in Greece, namely the ones from EH II to be original proto-Greek elements, but rather influence from the western Balkans with which we knew there were trade relations. As i have noted again in this thread, another form of burial that the Mycenaeans adopted, were the "tholoi", most probably from Minoan Crete, or even from their interactions with southern Iberia, such as Los Millares culture which also had "tholoi". We know for example that Mycenaeans introduced the tradition of "pithoi" burials in southern Iberia (El Argar) sometime around 1550 BCE, therefore i wouldn't be surprised if they were influenced in return with the tholoi from the neighboring Los Millares. But Crete is an equally possible source of "tholoi" since we have dozens of early examples in southern Crete. Therefore i don't view neither tumuli or tholoi as proto-Greek elements, only Mycenaean/Aeolic through adoption, but not initially, since these forms of burials came much later than what i personally consider the proto-Mycenaean/proto-Aeolic divergence from proto-Greek, sometime around 2200-1900 BCE, namely with the appearance of Minyan ware, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.
 
Demetrios said:
This still comes down to hypotheses mate. I personally don't relate the proto-Greek group with tumuli burials, mostly because the conservative subgroup of Dorians were cremating their dead, and because we don't find early examples in either of the aforementioned proto-Greek and proto-Phrygian regions. But that doesn't mean they themselves aren't related with EBA Balkan cultures such as Vučedol. There are many hypotheses in terms of how Graeco-Phrygians ended up in the Hellenic peninsula. Some even suggest a Carpathian intermediate stop, while others an Anatolian route and therefore intermediate stop. It really depends. But as i said above as well, i don't consider the earliest examples of tumuli in Greece, namely the ones from EH II to be original proto-Greek elements, but rather influence from the western Balkans with which we knew there were trade relations. As i have noted again in this thread, another form of burial that the Mycenaeans adopted, were the "tholoi", most probably from Minoan Crete, or even from their interactions with southern Iberia, such as Los Millares culture which also had "tholoi". We know for example that Mycenaeans introduced the tradition of "pithoi" burials in southern Iberia (El Argar) sometime around 1550 BCE, therefore i wouldn't be surprised if they were influenced in return with the tholoi from the neighboring Los Millares. But Crete is an equally possible source of "tholoi" since we have dozens of early examples in southern Crete. Therefore i don't view neither tumuli or tholoi as proto-Greek elements, only Mycenaean/Aeolic through adoption, but not initially, since these forms of burials came much later than what i personally consider the proto-Mycenaean/proto-Aeolic divergence from proto-Greek, sometime around 2200-1900 BCE, namely with the appearance of Minyan ware, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.
Click to expand...

After so many years of research, science has not agreed on the migration path of the proto Greeks and that is a pity. Personally I believe that proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, but cannot exclude also Carpathian route with what we have learned so far.
Your point of view contradict Hammond in relation with Epirus and tumulus burials there.


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blevins13 said:
After so many years of research, science has not agreed on the migration path of the proto Greeks and that is a pity. Personally I believe that proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, but cannot exclude also Carpathian route with what we have learned so far.
Your point of view contradict Hammond in relation with Epirus and tumulus burials there.


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Click to expand...
The tumuli of Epirus are an LBA Mycenaean influence and therefore out of context in relation to proto-Greeks.
 
Angela said:
It also would indeed by ironic if these two groups of people were genetically pretty similar, but then look at the Albanians and Greeks, at least some of them who post on this board. They're genetically similar too.
It must be something in the water around there.
Click to expand...
I think much more samples are needed betwen Minoans Mycenaeneans and ancient Greek homerian ones...

I have been researching for a while but not fully in professional manner regarding Greek and Albanian dna and all i can hypothise based on dna stats is this:
1. On the whole balkan region and above Greeks and Albanians have shown the most similar dna between them, least similar for example are with Serbs Bosnians and Croats, not so similar also with Bulgarians and Romanians and further we go even lesser

2. Now Greeks have some slavic dna especially north Greece or ethnic greeks I think above 19%, if we consider r1a as slavic, were Albanians have around 7% taking into account also Albanians from Kosovo Macedonia Montenegro south Serbia I believe. Now research suggests that slavic inhabitants came to this region from around 6th century I think.

3. Much similar with south east and west Greece and peleponese and Crete and Kosovo region especially with ev13 were they have the highest in the world above 40%
Now from these mycenaeneans and minoans i dont see any ev13 nor r1b (which are majorities for Greeks and Albanians) if i am right? But we see J2E on these samples instead?...
I also just read a post from @holderlin that its culture and archeology was quite different from proto greek or ancient/old greek...

Maybe to be more exact than we would need a lot more samples between mycenaeneans minoans and ancient greeks...
From what i have read i think the oldest ethnicities to these regions are Greeks Bulgarians Albanians, maybe doing more research within these regions and ethnicities would shed more light...


For more accuracy stats please refer to this post
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30562-Palasgians-pre-Ancient-Greeks-would-their-DNA-be-E-V13
 
Last edited:
blevins13 said:
Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian

So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.


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Click to expand...
I have the same R1b Z2103 is that true for me too lol 😆

Distribution of haplogroup R1b-ht35 (Z2103) in Europe from Maciamo is pretty interesting, you can see that the highest peak is in Peleponese Attica Albania Calabria and Sicily...
More interesting is that most of these regions have also highest EV13...

What i found very interesting is most J2a on these old Minoans and Mycenaeneans, did this actually complicate even more?..I always thought J2a was the latest one coming into Europe...
 
IronSide said:
Physical appearance of Alexander



pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh?? isn't that a bit too idealized? I've never encountered anyone with that ability.

Roman copy of a herma by Lysippos

AlexandreLouvre.jpg
Click to expand...

Wow if this is so true than these for me looks like very much of a peasant look, maybe from the mountains, definitely looks more whitish but def brown hair and brown eyes, it also doesnt look like very far south east of Greece alike were they might be a bit more darker, so around Midland Greece to further Macedonia and Albania on the west...

If we would find his dna would be very interesting
 
martin chaide said:
did minoans speak a greek language?
Click to expand...
It is difficult to classify the pre-Greek language of Crete, namely because there were a number of different languages that were being spoken on the island at the same time during the Bronze Age, and they were naturally intermingling with each other. Regarding Minoan, as in Linear A, there have been a number of hypotheses in regards to its classification. I personally like the work of Dutch scholar Peter van Soesbergen, who traces a Hurrian affiliation, https://minoanscript.nl/. There are of course many hypotheses, some of which you can read here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A#Theories_regarding_language.
 
How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.
 
dosas said:
How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. Speculation is no substitute for data.
 
blevins13 said:
View attachment 11726
This is a hypothesis not a speculation.
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Click to expand...

@Angela this seems like Maciamos hypothesis and therefore asked for his additional input...
This might not mean 100% that Dorians major group would be z2103 but definitely something to research about...hypothesis speculation = same lol

@Maciamo can you shed light a bit more on the below please?...

1. According to this source your R1b M269-L23 would be the same as
R1b-M269 (xL23)
1.jpg

2. Here on this study the spread goes from the central Balkans dont know about the timeframe though...you also mention ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
You also mention quote Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE.

THIS WOULD BE EXACTLY AS ON THE ABOVE MAP

Which haplogroup do you think mainly belonged to this group?


Source from:
Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).
https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/
 
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Here are the 5 closest modern populations to each sample, using Dodecad K12b. Each file was downloaded by me from ENA and converted to AncestryDNA format in DNAkit studio 2.6:

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEA00, align: right"]8.10472702[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]10.94615001[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0006, align: right"]15.17642250[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0011, align: right"]15.50650509[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0012, align: right"]15.52108566[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9E00, align: right"]10.36539917[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9100, align: right"]10.73167741[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.04834843[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4800, align: right"]12.88142073[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3B00, align: right"]13.27241500[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FAFF00, align: right"]7.36328731[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAD00, align: right"]9.91813491[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]10.93327947[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.47128153[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7600, align: right"]11.53933707[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.64348888[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.97400691[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.67560303[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06422596[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3F00, align: right"]13.15328096[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]10.92806936[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6D00, align: right"]11.78013582[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59648364[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4E00, align: right"]12.70569557[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.30693804[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.05129857[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7700, align: right"]11.49379398[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.67572483[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.48416031[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0D00, align: right"]14.61318925[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]12.42878916[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.52720207[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000D, align: right"]15.37795825[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]15.99369563[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0039, align: right"]16.66706933[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008F, align: right"]19.19387923[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.38123319[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.39888399[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A7, align: right"]19.90950527[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F7, align: right"]22.27279282[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007F, align: right"]18.73377698[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0087, align: right"]18.95648438[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0093, align: right"]19.32179340[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.41739684[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D6, align: right"]21.28023966[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A5, align: right"]19.84510771[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DE00FF, align: right"]23.46891774[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C300FF, align: right"]24.25093194[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9400FF, align: right"]25.63719563[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9200FF, align: right"]25.71314255[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9600FF, align: right"]25.58365689[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8A00FF, align: right"]25.93479902[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8400FF, align: right"]26.12751997[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6F00FF, align: right"]26.73861814[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5800FF, align: right"]27.40032482[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]6.26660195[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]7.70621178[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCE00, align: right"]8.94646299[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC300, align: right"]9.25349664[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.38393841[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.72670028[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.84305260[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0600, align: right"]14.81901481[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001D, align: right"]15.86489521[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0020, align: right"]15.92790005[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]13.22084717[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.35261023[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0008, align: right"]15.24028543[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0013, align: right"]15.55526278[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.55614422[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0030, align: right"]16.40677909[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0045, align: right"]17.01885131[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0051, align: right"]17.38071920[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0060, align: right"]17.83439935[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0094, align: right"]19.36226743[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0023, align: right"]16.02835924[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0054, align: right"]17.47265006[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005D, align: right"]17.72488646[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0065, align: right"]17.97613696[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007D, align: right"]18.67412381[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.35745090[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0060, align: right"]17.81555781[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0060, align: right"]17.81599843[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007E, align: right"]18.70781120[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0081, align: right"]18.79535049[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001E, align: right"]15.88887661[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0037, align: right"]16.61272103[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003F, align: right"]16.84600249[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0067, align: right"]18.03942349[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.57384721[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A0, align: right"]19.69157688[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A7, align: right"]19.92414866[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C3, align: right"]20.74236968[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C9, align: right"]20.91704807[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D9, align: right"]21.39073631[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
No modern population seems to be close to them, because they were of, almost, a pure neolithic farmer ancestry (with a bit of Caucasus and a bit of Yamnaya).

Using G25 scaled averages:

Screenshot-2020-01-10-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png




For comparison, these are the stats for all the modern Greek groups (averages):

Screenshot-2020-01-10-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2-1.png
 
dosas said:
No modern population seems to be close to them, because they were of, almost, a pure neolithic farmer ancestry (with a bit of Caucasus and a bit of Yamnaya).

Using G25 scaled averages:

Screenshot-2020-01-10-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png




For comparison, these are the stats for all the modern Greek groups (averages):

Screenshot-2020-01-10-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2-1.png
Click to expand...

Greece_Neolithic vs Antonio M. et al 2019 samples.

Consider this block quote from the Antonio paper:


Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA. However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.
Click to expand...

The closest are the Neolithic samples.

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(58, 100%, 50%), align: right"]7.72962483[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R9____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(50, 100%, 50%), align: right"]8.68883767[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(40, 100%, 50%), align: right"]9.90131809[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R3____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(32, 100%, 50%), align: right"]10.96392266[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R17___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(30, 100%, 50%), align: right"]11.17630977[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R8____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
That's why you have to use the Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N sample on top of the Barcin_N, the former being a bit more 'eastern-shifted' than the latter. You also have to take into account the limitations of the modelling we enthusiasts use in contrast to the professionals.

But I think the models above can showcase the differentiation between the ancient to the modern groups, the second having a lot more Steppe than the first.
 
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