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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Alan said:
I am not diminishing that in fact Hurro_Urarteaen and Manneaen are the best candidates that show this early connection between some Caucasian groups and IE.
Click to expand...
Hurro-Urartian appears to be an early branch of PIE, so does substratic Armenian which seems to fall in this branch. As for Mannaeans, they were part of the same Hurro-Urartian branch. So, PIE based on Fournet would be divided in Branch 1 (Hurro-Urartian) and Branch 2 (Eteo-Indo-European), which comprises the Anatolian and Post-Anatolian subbranches. I don't know the extent of Caucasian influence on Hurro-Urartian though, and whether we should associate it with indeed a PIE branch, or rather pre-Eteo-Indo-European, which would essentially translate to Hurro-Urartian (pre-Eteo-Indo-European)+Caucasian-substrate=PIE proper (proto-Eteo-Indo-European).
 
Some more things about Teshub.
The Hurrian myth of Teshub's origin—he was conceived when the god Kumarbi bit off and swallowed his father Anu's genitals, similarly to the Greek story of Uranus, Cronus, and Zeus, which is recounted in Hesiod's Theogony. Teshub's brothers are Aranzah (personification of the river Tigris), Ullikummi (stone giant) and Tashmishu.
Click to expand...

This story is actually more derived from Sumerian legends.

Illuyanka


Myths also exist of his conflict with the sea creature (possibly a snake or serpent) Hedammu (CTH 348).
Click to expand...

Thor and serpent jörmungandr ? Can this many overlaps actually be considered coincidence? I don't see how such a similar story could reach all the way up into North Europe without it coming from a common root.

Also a stone statue from 3000 BCwas found in the region of Tell Halaf . It depicts a proto version of Teshub.
 
Demetrios said:
Hurro-Urartian appears to be an early branch of PIE, so does substratic Armenian which seems to fall in this branch. As for Mannaeans, they were part of the same Hurro-Urartian branch. So, PIE based on Fournet would be divided in Branch 1 (Hurro-Urartian) and Branch 2 (Eteo-Indo-European), which comprises the Anatolian and Post-Anatolian subbranches. I don't know the extent of Caucasian influence on Hurro-Urartian though, and whether we should associate it with indeed a PIE branch, or rather pre-Eteo-Indo-European, which would essentially translate to Hurro-Urartian (pre-Eteo-Indo-European)+Caucasian-substrate=PIE proper (proto-Eteo-Indo-European).
Click to expand...

Actually, as fas as the Mannaeans go--they seem to have been Armenian or Iranian, or at least their ruling class was. It's generally thought that Mannae was multi-cultural, but names like Daiakku, Mitati, Bagdatti, Iranzu, and possibly Ullusunu seem to be Indo-European. Obviously Iranzu and Bagdatti seem Iranic. Personally, I think the others could be Armenic. There was apparently a population in the Mannae region with significant Yamna ancestry by 2200 BCE. I doubt that they were Iranic, I suspect they were either Armenian or some other group like Gutian.
 
Alan said:
I am not diminishing that in fact Hurro_Urarteaen and Manneaen are the best candidates that show this early connection between some Caucasian groups and IE.

One of the most irrefutable connections imo is simply the deity Teshub. Some historians/linguists have tried it with the vague explaination that Teshub might be influenced by an Indo European group(the Hurro_Urarteaens having adopted him to their culture) but which people should that be? Hurrian Teshub clearly predates any other version of this Thunder Deity be it Hittite, Greek, Celtic or Germanic versions.
So for me at least there is absolutely no way this theory could work out. The Hurrian version predates all the other by at least 1000 years.
Click to expand...

It's pretty clear to me that there was some sort of early Indo-European presence in the Caucasus region and also in northern Mesopotamia.

Teshub could have originated from a Common Anatolian or early Hittite culture. Additionally, I think it's pretty clear that there was some sort of early Armenian presence in the South Caucasus by 2000 BCE, so Teshub could have come from that. Armenian appears to have some loanwords from Sumerian, which are normally explained as being filtered through an intermediary (Akkadian) but the Armenian forms are closer to the Sumerian forms than the Akkadian forms often are, so I find this hard to believe. We also have groups like the Gutians, who many suspect were a (centum) IE language and the Mushki, who may have been another IE culture in the region (there is a lot of confusion about the Mushki though).

Remember, the earliest attestations of Hurrian that we have are from 2000 BCE. But we have some early Hittite names recorded in relatively close proximity to Urkesh (where the earliest recorded Hurrians were). These early IE names date to 2500-2300 BCE. But scholarship seems to be pushing the Anatolian IE presence in the Near East back a lot further. There seems to be renewed interest in linking them to Kura-Araxes.

I wouldn't write off Teshub being IE.

Uelikummi, for its part, seems to be a mixed Armenian and Hurrian name--Uelik being Armenian, -ummi being Hurrian. I suspect that Illuyanka derives from PIE "wel" just like Uel(ik) does. Or if "Ill" doesn't derive from "wel" it is related to it (one of the meanings of "wel" is "to twist, to coil"--think about snakes).
 
Last edited:
tyuiopman said:
Actually, as fas as the Mannaeans go--they seem to have been Armenian or Iranian, or at least their ruling class was. It's generally thought that Mannae was multi-cultural, but names like Daiakku, Mitati, Bagdatti, Iranzu, and possibly Ullusunu seem to be Indo-European. Obviously Iranzu and Bagdatti seem Iranic. Personally, I think the others could be Armenic. There was apparently a population in the Mannae region with significant Yamna ancestry by 2200 BCE. I doubt that they were Iranic, I suspect they were either Armenian or some other group like Gutian.
Click to expand...
You are not wrong. I agree on the multi-cultural aspect, since during the Classical period, Herodotus gives us many distinct inhabitants of the broader region of Armenia for example, Armenians, Alarodians, Chaldaioi, Kolchoi, Makrones, Mares, Moschoi, Mossynoikoi, Saspeires, Tibarenoi (Tabali in Persian). Similarly, in Xenophon’s Anabasis, we read among the tribes mentioned by Herodotus, Xenophon also introducing the Chalybes, Drilae, Carduchi and Taochi. This region was very heavily mixed, and i even personally recognize some tribes with IE derived names (probably associated with Armenians and Iranians). I personally thought that the ruling class of Mannaeans spoke Hurro-Urartian (even though this is just a hypothesis), hence my mention of them. I am not really absolute on this since i haven't deepen my research on them. Regarding your IE classification of certain Mannaean rulers, well, Hurro-Urartian appears to have also been IE therefore you shouldn't exclude its association when it comes to IE names, even though i agree that Iranzu, Bagdatti, and even Mitati are likely Iranian. Anyway, let's not expand on this. I do find this article/paper very useful though, since it also deals with the names, http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mannea.
 
Here are the Dodecad K7b coordinates for the Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, at http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

Code: 
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.81,0,0.04,51.55,25.55,0.05
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,23.45,0,0.25,47.47,28.83,0
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,24.87,0,0.45,49.2,25.48,0
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.4,0,0.2,49.13,28.27,0
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,31.95,0,1.58,41.1,24.86,0.51
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,33.95,0,0.48,40.48,24.65,0.42
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,35.75,0,1.96,42.06,19.78,0.46
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.59,0,0.58,51.68,25.15,0
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis,0,26.75,0,0.14,40.41,32.51,0.19
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,0,14.95,0,0.63,45.95,38.11,0.36
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese,0,17.21,0.84,3.25,37.69,41.01,0
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,0,21.31,0,0.61,40.95,37.14,0
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,0,19.31,0,0,33.34,47.17,0.18
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,19.37,0,0,50.86,29.77,0
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,7.98,1.58,0,52.89,35.17,2.38
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,15.41,0,0.16,51.73,32.69,0
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,21.07,0,0,48.54,30.39,0
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,27.79,0,0.02,50.19,21.99,0
 
Here's my results:

9LV19OS.png
 
Mine

4.35562854 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.34540805 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
17.07410905 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
20.16042410 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
21.91538957 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
26.22964163 I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
27.04493113 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
27.83330918 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
27.88569884 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
29.00606661 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
29.15295011 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
29.32860208 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
30.61564469 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
31.45773514 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
31.73608199 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
32.81546434 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
33.17885923 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
35.70232205 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
36.85938686 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
 
Jovialis: Many thanks again.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]5.34140431[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]6.45593525[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]8.70789871[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.70746343[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.34228991[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.73657526[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]14.14548338[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0005, align: right"]15.13739410[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0011, align: right"]15.50460899[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0029, align: right"]16.19644097[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003F, align: right"]16.85183373[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004A, align: right"]17.19064571[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0061, align: right"]17.84991597[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006C, align: right"]18.17824524[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]19.00934244[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.36881772[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C0, align: right"]20.65580306[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DD, align: right"]21.49435740[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E000FF, align: right"]23.40739413[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 5.3414% / 5.34140431 | ADC: 2x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 4.4120% / 4.41203743 | ADC: 1x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]69.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]27.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 1.8120% / 1.81200405 | ADC: 0.5x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]63.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]29.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 1.4926% / 1.49259517 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]65.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]34.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9CFF00, align: right"]4.57522677[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6D00, align: right"]11.80837415[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0042, align: right"]16.92835491[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0086, align: right"]18.95147751[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FC, align: right"]22.42227241[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AA00FF, align: right"]24.99695781[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7400FF, align: right"]26.59429826[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6D00FF, align: right"]26.80743181[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5000FF, align: right"]27.65733357[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4F00FF, align: right"]27.67532294[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3800FF, align: right"]28.34714624[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2800FF, align: right"]28.82947624[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.39481645[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.63339217[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.36891564[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.47188168[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.82775503[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.77267672[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]37.73311808[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I think we should keep in mind that Armenoi is the most "northern" of the ancient Greek samples, but also that it is not an optimal sample.

I'm apparently not a good match for any of the others.


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Angela
Distance: 4.5752% / 4.57522677 | ADC: 1x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Angela
Distance: 4.5752% / 4.57522677 | ADC: 0.5x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Angela
Distance: 4.5752% / 4.57522677 | ADC: 0.25x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]


[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.85067555[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4BFF00, align: right"]2.21327811[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9CFF00, align: right"]4.59162281[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]5.60811911[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.13246580[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9A00, align: right"]10.47840637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8F00, align: right"]10.80467491[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4E00, align: right"]12.70869781[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4300, align: right"]13.04227741[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2D00, align: right"]13.68535714[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2000, align: right"]14.05428760[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0800, align: right"]14.77330024[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]16.01448407[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0026, align: right"]16.12893053[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.36534754[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004E, align: right"]17.29868781[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0052, align: right"]17.40271818[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0068, align: right"]18.05150963[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0079, align: right"]18.56939956[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.57871363[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007E, align: right"]18.69885023[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B6, align: right"]20.36483734[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B8, align: right"]20.41412746[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C6, align: right"]20.83633845[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.20029717[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Sorry, duplicate...
 
As an addendum to my post #2010, the Chroma analysis from MyTrueancestry indicates I share DNA segments with I9041 and I9006, which are my closest distances in the Dodecad 7B calculator. So speaking for my own personal results, I think this indicates again, as we already learned from the ancient Roman samples for all of the Individuals here either from Italy or whose ancestors came somewhere from one of the 20 regions of Italy, that the Dodecad performs the best for Italians and Southern Europeans. So again, my compliments to the work that Jovialis did with estimating these coordinates. The Dodecad 7b coordinates you put together for these ancient Greeks and my own personal results from Dodecad 7b are consistent with what I get from the Chroma analysis from MyTrueancestry.
 
Angela said:
[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.85067555[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4BFF00, align: right"]2.21327811[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9CFF00, align: right"]4.59162281[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]5.60811911[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.13246580[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9A00, align: right"]10.47840637[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8F00, align: right"]10.80467491[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4E00, align: right"]12.70869781[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4300, align: right"]13.04227741[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2D00, align: right"]13.68535714[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2000, align: right"]14.05428760[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0800, align: right"]14.77330024[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]16.01448407[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0026, align: right"]16.12893053[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.36534754[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004E, align: right"]17.29868781[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0052, align: right"]17.40271818[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0068, align: right"]18.05150963[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0079, align: right"]18.56939956[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.57871363[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007E, align: right"]18.69885023[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B6, align: right"]20.36483734[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B8, align: right"]20.41412746[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C6, align: right"]20.83633845[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.20029717[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
Here are the four Mycenaean samples as TARGETS.

I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
I9006-Bronze-Age-Mycenaean-Agia-Kyriaki-Salamis.png


I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
I9010-Bronze-Age-Mycenaean-Galatas-Apatheia-Peloponnese.png


I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
I9033-Bronze-Age-Mycenaean-Peristeria-Tryfilia-Peloponnese.png


I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
I9041-Bronze-Age-Mycenaean-Galatas-Apatheia-Peloponnese.png
 
Dianatomia said:
Okey Demetrios. Thank you. So in three years time we will know if some Dorians had some fun with Mycenaean women. And if that Armenoi sample mentioned above was a modern mainland Greek which came too early.
Click to expand...

Classical Age Peloponnesians will probably end up being the same as Myceaneans, I think the people who expect similar results to Armenoi are going to be disappointed and I, myself was expecting it too before. While there might have been some regional differences in Macedonia and Epirus but as there is one Thracian sample which plots not far to Myceanans and it was even taken from inland northern Bulgaria, it is safe to assume it is not going to be something major.
 
ihype02 said:
Classical Age Peloponnesians will probably end up being the same as Myceaneans, I think the people who expect similar results to Armenoi are going to be disappointed and I, myself was expecting it too before. While there might have been some regional differences in Macedonia and Epirus but as there is one Thracian sample which plots not far to Myceanans and it was even taken from inland northern Bulgaria, it is safe to assume it is not going to be something major.
Click to expand...
I agree on Peloponnesus, but not necessarily as we move north into the proto-Greek region where we also find the origin of the Dorians (namely Pindus mountain range more or less), or even Thrace. Here is the respective Global 25 autosomal map for the Iron Age Bulgarian (namely Thracian) for example.

yxJcGfC.png


It does appear to have a similar drift towards central Italy, as the Crete_Armenoi sample did per the Dodecad K7b distance results that @Angela shared above. Maybe i am wrong, but that's what it looks like to me from a simple observation. As for Classical Peloponnesians, for all we know they might largely be assimilated Achaeans/Arcadocypriots (who were themselves largely assimilated pre-Greeks), but i wouldn't be so sure about central and northern Dorians. It goes without saying that in order to be certain we also need Classical samples from Peloponnesus. Maybe they will be included in the upcoming paper, but for now we only know of Ambracian samples that will be presented.
 
Jovialis said:
Here are the Dodecad K7b coordinates for the Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, at http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

Code: 
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.81,0,0.04,51.55,25.55,0.05
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,23.45,0,0.25,47.47,28.83,0
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,24.87,0,0.45,49.2,25.48,0
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.4,0,0.2,49.13,28.27,0
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,31.95,0,1.58,41.1,24.86,0.51
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,33.95,0,0.48,40.48,24.65,0.42
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,0,35.75,0,1.96,42.06,19.78,0.46
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,22.59,0,0.58,51.68,25.15,0
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis,0,26.75,0,0.14,40.41,32.51,0.19
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,0,14.95,0,0.63,45.95,38.11,0.36
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese,0,17.21,0.84,3.25,37.69,41.01,0
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,0,21.31,0,0.61,40.95,37.14,0
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,0,19.31,0,0,33.34,47.17,0.18
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,19.37,0,0,50.86,29.77,0
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,7.98,1.58,0,52.89,35.17,2.38
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,15.41,0,0.16,51.73,32.69,0
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,21.07,0,0,48.54,30.39,0
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,27.79,0,0.02,50.19,21.99,0
Click to expand...

Thanks for the data. Here are my results:


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Archetype0ne[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]5.84924781[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3100, align: right"]13.54797771[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005E, align: right"]17.75886821[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E6, align: right"]21.77711873[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E7, align: right"]21.78146230[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4C00FF, align: right"]27.76944904[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4900FF, align: right"]27.86743081[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3800FF, align: right"]28.36103842[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.32735924[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0600FF, align: right"]29.82100099[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.02062125[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.03649613[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.73342317[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.15515527[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.14762044[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.46992829[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.83896718[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.90057938[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]36.13475059[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Archetype0ne
Distance: 5.8492% / 5.84924781 | ADC: 0.5x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Archetype0ne
Distance: 5.8492% / 5.84924781 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Archetype0ne
Distance: 5.8492% / 5.84924781

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
 
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