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Pontic greeks were mostly natives by the black sea who became hellenized culturally.Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.
Davidski:
''The Medieval samples that I've seen are from North Macedonia. They look like modern Balkan Slavs.
There's a huge genetic shift in Macedonia from the Iron Age/Hellenistic period to the Middle Ages, and it's obviously a Slavic-inspired shift.
But the Slavs are not like Poles or Ukrainians. They're most similar to Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians etc.''
The up-comming paper is going to reveal that Slavs not Dorians or Goths or Celts are the ultimate source of the northern shift of the Balkans if Davidski is right.
He has also shared the following though on his blog and anthrogenica:
'' Expect some significant substructures in the Bronze Age Greek world, mostly along the Mycenaean > Crete Armenoi cline.
So not all of the extra steppe admix in Greeks today is from Slavs, or even the Iron Age and Hellenistic periods.''
and:
''Heard some stuff...
- Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)
- Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Mycenaeans) to basically none
- Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian
Let's wait and see.''
So the few mycenean samples we currently have might not be giving us the whole story, even though they are probably fairly representantive for later Greeks.
Having said that, there are in fact more northern shifted Greeks in the bronze age even. Whether steppe is increased in the early iron age by Dorians it will be interesting to see, but i dont expect much difference. Perhaps it will be more evenly distributed among the samples as a result of admixture with northern Greek tribes but who knows.
As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.
Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.
The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.
All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.
Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.
There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.
He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.
The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.
As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.
Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.
The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.
All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.
Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.
There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.
He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.
The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.
Why is ( formerly mainland-Doric colonized) Calabria the closest to Myceaneans? In fact this Thracian seem to be even closer than Greek Islanders.
Who ever said that all extra steppe admix is from Slavs? In fact Slavs are the most northernmost invaders and migrants (or at least in top 2) in the history of Greece so by taking in consideration Celts, Venetians, Albanians and other will only deflate the Myceanean-like admixture in Greeks, because they are closer to Greeks than the Northern Slavs are.
Crete Armenoi is Tuscan like. So, making it sound like they had a lot of steppe is silly.
As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.
Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.
The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.
All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.
Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.
There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.
He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.
The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.
30% steppe in Armenoi seems too high, as per the admixture proportions in the paper. Bergamasques are about 30% Steppe, Armenoi is south of Tuscans:
We already have a number of Dorian samples that are pending analysis. Also, there is no huge or academic debate about the Greekness of Dorian Greeks, this is already established. Furthermore, Dorians cannot represent a Hallstatt population, when even their dialect (and Greek in general) is absent of any noticeable Celtic substrate. Genetics will surely validate all these when the relative samples get published, especially when you also consider the Mycenaean and ancient Thracian samples that are already published. They cannot be that different, and my guess is that Dorians will be somewhere in the middle between these two, per geographic distribution. Writing that Dorians are typically Hallstatt is like writing that they are typically proto-Celtic or Celtic, which is of course not true.The Serbs are not Slavs!!!!??? This says it all. They are definitely Slavs and have absorbed Balkanite populations, while the Romanians are the opposite.....Balkanites that have absorbed Slavic population.
As for the Dorians, we still have to identify a northern Dorian grave. There is still a huge debate and no general agreement where they came from.
For me Dorians are typically Hallstatt.
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We already have a number of Dorian samples that are pending analysis. Also, there is no huge or academic debate about the Greekness of Dorian Greeks, this is already established. Furthermore, Dorians cannot represent a Hallstatt population, when even their dialect (and Greek in general) is absent of any noticeable Celtic substrate. Genetics will surely validate all these when the relative samples get published, especially when you also consider the Mycenaean and ancient Thracian samples that are already published. They cannot be that different, and my guess is that Dorians will be somewhere in the middle between these two, per geographic distribution. Writing that Dorians are typically Hallstatt is like writing that they are typically proto-Celtic or Celtic, which is of course not true.
I am already familiar with that article. In short, there seems to have been a southward migration from northern Greek tribes such as the Dorians sometime during the Bronze Age collapse and Early Iron Age. This is the prevalent view today, and it makes sense linguistically. Listen to what Eric Cline mentions a couple of months ago in this small video that relates, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ2gT9HQy7Q. Also, take note of what is written here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page87?p=606408&viewfull=1#post606408.I know your views, but we do not know yet what is true. I expressed my views, I have no intention to take away the Greekness of Dorians.
As for where Dorians came from questions
Read this and close the gap if you know the answer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
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As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.
Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.
The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.
All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.
Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.
There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.
He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.
The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.
Paternally I would say you are incorrect. A good chunk of their fatherlines come from the north east, as some of these types of R1a and I2-M423 have not shown up in the area until < 2000 ybp. Even going back to the age estimates, this still pans out, at least for the relevant downstream I2-M423 guys, it's been demonstrated with the TMRCA. Then there is the IBD sharing that was shown a few years back. The impact of this autosomally may be minor, showing only a minor shift northwards. We know that Yamnaya ancestry predates these events.
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