Genetic traces of the Spanish Occupation of the Low Countries?

^^ Hola, como puedes ver, yo también soy E V22 por año. En España, el V 22 es el 0, 28% de la población, y en Andalucía el origen del V 22 es más bien fenicio. En mi familia hay una leyenda de que es un soldado o un soldado que desertó de las tropas de Napoleón cuando estaban en España y cuando se fue cambió sus apellidos, porque me imagino que en ese momento en España no debería ser muy conveniente tener un francés. apellido


Estamos condenados a que sea más difícil y tengamos que especular más sobre por qué y cómo estamos en cualquier país de Europa.

Honestamente, no creo que su antepasado fuera un soldado español, no andamos por ahí violando a personas, la furia española es coraje y honor, no violación. No estoy diciendo que no haya un caso aislado, pero ese no debería ser el tono general. Hay compañeros soldados, superiores, etc. No somos vikingos en una película de Hollywood.

Yes, I have found it curious that both in your case and in mine there is a belief or supposition in a military origin.


Saludos.
 
@Northener,

It indeed seems possible.

I've wondered, given what happened in Germany during the Russian occupation, if upon investigation there would be a noticeable up tick in more "Slavic" yDna from the time when Berlin and other cities were first occupied. It might be more difficult to tell in that situation.

One case where it's easy to tell is with African-Americans, although it wasn't always rape through physical assault, i.e. it could have been coercion or threats or just a system which it would have been futile to resist. It could even, upon occasion, have been genuine feeling or attachment. There are documented cases where that seems to have been the case. On another thread, we were discussing that Martin Luther King's y seems to have been a clade of I1.

Unfortunately for women, rape is often an aspect of war. However, people are complicated, and male-female relationships are complicated. Women also sometimes choose to have a relationship with a foreign soldier, even if he is part of a force occupying her country. In my own area, there was a Wehrmacht soldier who was very decent to the local people, helping get them food and medical supplies. He fell in love with a local girl, and when there was going to be an "action" against the village by the SS, he told her and saved a lot of lives. They were still together after the war. It happens.
 
Carlos said:
^^ Hola, como puedes ver, yo también soy E V22 por año. En España, el V 22 es el 0, 28% de la población, y en Andalucía el origen del V 22 es más bien fenicio. En mi familia hay una leyenda de que es un soldado o un soldado que desertó de las tropas de Napoleón cuando estaban en España y cuando se fue cambió sus apellidos, porque me imagino que en ese momento en España no debería ser muy conveniente tener un francés. apellido


Estamos condenados a que sea más difícil y tengamos que especular más sobre por qué y cómo estamos en cualquier país de Europa.

Honestamente, no creo que su antepasado fuera un soldado español, no andamos por ahí violando a personas, la furia española es coraje y honor, no violación. No estoy diciendo que no haya un caso aislado, pero ese no debería ser el tono general. Hay compañeros soldados, superiores, etc. No somos vikingos en una película de Hollywood.

Yes, I have found it curious that both in your case and in mine there is a belief or supposition in a military origin.


Saludos.
Click to expand...


Google translate does wonders! But I prefer to use the English language (although it's not my mother tongue) so it makes a bit easier to communicate.

'The Spanish fury is courage and honor, not rape'....unfortunately in times of war in history and nowadays and from Reykjavik to Cape Town and from Friesland to Wdladiwostok..... rape is more often part of warfare.....sadly enough. So dream on.


Spanish fury in Antwerpen:

5oxzz84uhfu.41.23.png


PS I guess that the Arabic influence (in Spain and Southern Italy) in the early middle ages could also be the cause of E-V22 in that area's.
 
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Angela said:
@Northener,

It indeed seems possible.

I've wondered, given what happened in Germany during the Russian occupation, if upon investigation there would be a noticeable up tick in more "Slavic" yDna from the time when Berlin and other cities were first occupied. It might be more difficult to tell in that situation.

One case where it's easy to tell is with African-Americans, although it wasn't always rape through physical assault, i.e. it could have been coercion or threats or just a system which it would have been futile to resist. It could even, upon occasion, have been genuine feeling or attachment. There are documented cases where that seems to have been the case. On another thread, we were discussing that Martin Luther King's y seems to have been a clade of I1.

Unfortunately for women, rape is often an aspect of war. However, people are complicated, and male-female relationships are complicated. Women also sometimes choose to have a relationship with a foreign soldier, even if he is part of a force occupying her country. In my own area, there was a Wehrmacht soldier who was very decent to the local people, helping get them food and medical supplies. He fell in love with a local girl, and when there was going to be an "action" against the village by the SS, he told her and saved a lot of lives. They were still together after the war. It happens.
Click to expand...


You are right. And humanity is in this respect seemingly unable to learn.....And of course love baby's could still also be the case..... But doubtful in my family's case, rural dwellers so not much interference with the Spanish army (otherwise than that raid in 1586).

Wasn't I. Berlin who stated that 'human are made of curved wood'?
 
Northener said:
You are right. And humanity is in this respect seemingly unable to learn.....And of course love baby's could still also be the case..... But doubtful in my family's case, rural dwellers so not much interference with the Spanish army (otherwise than that raid in 1586).

Wasn't I. Berlin who stated that 'human are made of curved wood'?
Click to expand...

Right again: people never seem to learn.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the quote.
 
^^
To Northener

In relation to the Spanish fury, I would say that the worst thing that can be done is to surround a wounded animal.

(PS I guess that the Arabic influence (in Spain and Southern Italy) in the early middle ages could also be the cause of E-V22 in that area's)

As far as I have investigated the majority of V22 in Andalusia is of Phoenician origin, I think that a 3.4%, of Arab origin should be very low if there is one. I do not know every day I'm more involved. My DNA lineage And it comes from Montejaque (Málaga) I recently read that six residents of that town accepted the baptism for 22,000 maravedíes. However also 200 neighbors managed to defeat a Napoleon troop of 700 men, and there were defections from Napoleon's army, which coincides with the oral tradition in my family, why would they invent something like that? They also informed me that I am close to the Askenazi although there is distance. My life is a continuous dichotomy. I think the V22 is very versatile and elusive when looking for the precise historical origin. We will have to continue investigating.
 
^^Just stop. That war was no different than many wars before or since. Spanish soldiers are no different than any other soldiers. Rapes happen during war, although it's possible some relationships are consensual. If anything, the original article is trying to present a more balanced view.

This is not a personal attack against Spain. In Northener's case, it's a more than reasonable explanation for why that y line might be present in the Netherlands. Just give it a rest.
 
Hell's furey

Trying to make sense out of none senses is the highest calling of wasted effort

After the brutal execution of some 1,000 defenders of the Papal capital and shrines,
the pillage began. Churches and monasteries, as well as the palaces of prelates and
cardinals, were looted and destroyed. Even pro-Imperial cardinals had to pay to save
their properties from the rampaging soldiers. On 8 May, Cardinal Pompeo Colonna,
a personal enemy of Clement VII, entered the city. He was followed by peasants
from his fiefs, who had come to avenge the sacks they had suffered by Papal armies.
However, Colonna was touched by the pitiful conditions of the city and hosted in his
palace a number of Roman citizens.

War questioned the sensibilites of all those who endured it's process of mutilalization of those who would not submit.
 
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Humanity seems determined to squander if not eliminate it's existense. genocide can just as easily apply to those moments as it does to these.
The hardest part is watching just what happened yesterday while we look back at the sacking of Rome. The fact that each member of that time could just as easily recall the horrors before. Learning from our mistakes seems a lost cause until one can witness a change.
 
^^
To Northener

In Spain V22 is 0.28% although in Andalusia it can be 3% approx. and in the north of Spain, 4% aprox. in the historical period to which we refer must still be inferior, (We speak of 1.5 or 0.5 V22 men in the Spanish troops) and even lower if we only look at men by age or willingness to be military in the ranks. If already the genetic results of the area show that there is no genetic fingerprint of the Spanish hosts, the fact that two or three Spanish V22 men would have left it would be unlikely, it is easier for you to touch the Euro million prize nowadays. your V22 is from a Spaniard of the time to which we refer. Besides, we do not go around raping people.
 
Carlos said:
^^
To Northener

In Spain V22 is 0.28% although in Andalusia it can be 3% approx. and in the north of Spain, 4% aprox. in the historical period to which we refer must still be inferior, (We speak of 1.5 or 0.5 V22 men in the Spanish troops) and even lower if we only look at men by age or willingness to be military in the ranks. If already the genetic results of the area show that there is no genetic fingerprint of the Spanish hosts, the fact that two or three Spanish V22 men would have left it would be unlikely, it is easier for you to touch the Euro million prize nowadays. your V22 is from a Spaniard of the time to which we refer. Besides, we do not go around raping people.
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I guess the E-V22 could be higher in the sixteenth century Andalusia and Asturias. My line can be found in the Middle East. So I guess that there be a connection with the Arabic/Islamic time in Spain and/or Southern Italy. The Reconquista time was harsh for Jewish and Islamic believers. An escape route through participation in the army is in this respect an old way. In some way it can ‘prove’ your loyalty.
By the way: you must be blind folded to exclude rape from any army.


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Carlos said:
^^
To Northener

In relation to the Spanish fury, I would say that the worst thing that can be done is to surround a wounded animal.

(PS I guess that the Arabic influence (in Spain and Southern Italy) in the early middle ages could also be the cause of E-V22 in that area's)

As far as I have investigated the majority of V22 in Andalusia is of Phoenician origin, I think that a 3.4%, of Arab origin should be very low if there is one. I do not know every day I'm more involved. My DNA lineage And it comes from Montejaque (Málaga) I recently read that six residents of that town accepted the baptism for 22,000 maravedíes. However also 200 neighbors managed to defeat a Napoleon troop of 700 men, and there were defections from Napoleon's army, which coincides with the oral tradition in my family, why would they invent something like that? They also informed me that I am close to the Askenazi although there is distance. My life is a continuous dichotomy. I think the V22 is very versatile and elusive when looking for the precise historical origin. We will have to continue investigating.
Click to expand...

Do you mean Berber instead of Arab ?
 
^^It could be Jewish, it's hard to know. It seems that there is always a military legend for which we are V-22 in Europe. In my family there is the oral tradition that it was a deserter of Napoleon's troops who changed his name and as I understand Napoleon eliminated laws that repress the Jews so it is likely that they enlist in the troops of Napoleon, I do not know the nationalities that made up Napoleon's army. My match is only 12 markers distance 0 Egypt and distance 1 with England, France, Germany, Iraq, Italy, Lebanon, Russian Federation, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Wales. So you'll tell me how clear I am.
 
Carlos said:
^^It could be Jewish, it's hard to know. It seems that there is always a military legend for which we are V-22 in Europe. In my family there is the oral tradition that it was a deserter of Napoleon's troops who changed his name and as I understand Napoleon eliminated laws that repress the Jews so it is likely that they enlist in the troops of Napoleon, I do not know the nationalities that made up Napoleon's army. My match is only 12 markers distance 0 Egypt and distance 1 with England, France, Germany, Iraq, Italy, Lebanon, Russian Federation, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Wales. So you'll tell me how clear I am.
Click to expand...

EV22 is old enough for a neolithic spread in the Mediterranean area, like for example in the cardium pottery culture. The spread to Northwest Europe could be also connected to Neolithic farmers, for example in the funnel beaker culture. But of course the spread could be from the the last centuries, either Jewish or not.....


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