Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

Latin and Greek are both Indo-European languages, so, of course, there will be some similarities. At the same time, they are on totally different branches of the Indo-European languages.

However, this is not a linguistics thread. Take extended posts about it to the linguistics section. Some discipline, please, gentlemen; people are coming to this thread for a discussion of the genetics of a particular area, not to read about linguistics in any detailed way.


ok

simply they both show the same linguistic change Q->P
which might be a result of another influence

All I say is that except Myceneans maybe that IE non Yamnaa group pass to Italian penisnula
 
@ Angela,

What is your opinion on the Etruscans? Maciamo speculates they are of Greek or West Anatolian origin.

I've opined a lot on the Etruscans here and on other sites in the past, because the Etruscans are sort of a thing with me (and with other people), and I've spent a very long time studying them, but at the end of the day I still really don't know the answer to that question.

The ancient dna we have for them so far is a set of not very resolved mtDna where some of the lineages were first claimed to have a correspondence to Anatolia/Turkey, but were later said to be so generic that they could have been in Italy since the Neolithic. As a set they most resembled a set from southern Germany (lots of "farmer" mtdna, but quite a bit of U5 too) which generally, I think, just means Late Neolithic/Early Bronze in areas with a lot of farmer impact but also some absorption of WHG/steppe.

The only other information is a non-published PCA of their autosomes where they look sort of Iberian, Tuscan/North Italian, Bulgarian? IF that's correct, and it's a big IF, then there sure wasn't any major replacement of the whole population in the first millennium BC by people from Anatolia. We know there were Bronze Age movements from Anatolia into Southeastern Europe, so I'm assuming into Italy as well, but whether there was specifically an Iron Age movement from Anatolia only into southern Toscana in the Iron Age, i.e. in the first millennium BC, that I don't know. If there was it was perhaps an elite movement? After all, look how similar Tuscans are to Albanians. Did the "Etruscans" from Anatolia go to Albania as well specifically in the first millennium BC? I think a lot of the analysis of the Tuscans in terms of the Etruscans was always done without placing Tuscany, and Italy as a whole, into the context of similar processes taking place in Greece and the more northern Balkans.

Anyway, as I said there are lots of threads on it, with this one being perhaps the most specific. Bottom line, I don't think modern dna is the way to go with this one.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eory-on-the-Origi?highlight=Etruscans+Tuscans
 
I've opined a lot on the Etruscans here and on other sites in the past, because the Etruscans are sort of a thing with me (and with other people), and I've spent a very long time studying them, but at the end of the day I still really don't know the answer to that question.
The ancient dna we have for them so far is a set of not very resolved mtDna where some of the lineages were first claimed to have a correspondence to Anatolia/Turkey, but were later said to be so generic that they could have been in Italy since the Neolithic. As a set they most resembled a set from southern Germany (lots of "farmer" mtdna, but quite a bit of U5 too) which generally, I think, just means Late Neolithic/Early Bronze in areas with a lot of farmer impact but also some absorption of WHG/steppe.
The only other information is a non-published PCA of their autosomes where they look sort of Iberian, Tuscan/North Italian, Bulgarian? IF that's correct, and it's a big IF, then there sure wasn't any major replacement of the whole population in the first millennium BC by people from Anatolia. We know there were Bronze Age movements from Anatolia into Southeastern Europe, so I'm assuming into Italy as well, but whether there was specifically an Iron Age movement from Anatolia only into southern Toscana in the Iron Age, i.e. in the first millennium BC, that I don't know. If there was it was perhaps an elite movement? After all, look how similar Tuscans are to Albanians. Did the "Etruscans" from Anatolia go to Albania as well specifically in the first millennium BC? I think a lot of the analysis of the Tuscans in terms of the Etruscans was always done without placing Tuscany, and Italy as a whole, into the context of similar processes taking place in Greece and the more northern Balkans.
Anyway, as I said there are lots of threads on it, with this one being perhaps the most specific. Bottom line, I don't think modern dna is the way to go with this one.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eory-on-the-Origi?highlight=Etruscans+Tuscans

It's not a PCA, but there is also a multidimensional scaling (MDS) built from the matrix of the FSt where Etruscans are somewhat close to early Middle Ages people from Modena, Emilia-Romagna (5th to the 7th century AD). It comes from a 2015 Italian poster.


xrd21sy.jpg

BAJU1NP.jpg
 
It's not a PCA, but there is also a multidimensional scaling (MDS) built from the matrix of the FSt where Etruscans are somewhat close to early Middle Ages people from Modena, Emilia-Romagna (5th to the 7th century AD). It comes from a 2015 Italian poster.


xrd21sy.jpg

BAJU1NP.jpg

Do you happen to have a link to the paper? I don't know why this isn't more widely known.

It would certainly make me very happy if they turn out to be like Emilians. :)
 
Do you happen to have a link to the paper? I don't know why this isn't more widely known.
It would certainly make me very happy if they turn out to be like Emilians. :)
I have only the poster, sorry.
This is another MDS but less easy to read (it comes from another study).
0Fc9Yz2.jpg
 
Interesting. You know it's probably for another thread but here in the US especially among the first wave immigrants who arrived in the US in the early 1900s ( like all four of my grandparents) they bonded with Albanian immigrants as both groups faced pretty severe discrimination.

All of us are connected. Greeks and Albanians especially. My moms lineage is from the Albanian warlord Gjin Bua Shpata who stretched up into the pelopenessus. I am sure intermixing occurred. Given my Ydna, its possible it could be connected to Slavic migrations into Byzantium, then becoming Albanian or Greek etc. Genetically, culturally, historically, we are related peoples. Religion coupled with politics unfortunately divides us.
 
Sorry, but you can't know it all when it comes to how things work in Greece. There are examples that prove my points and examples of amazing humans which you talk of. One of my father's best friend is an Arvanite just like many other people I know, and all seem to confirm that back in the days the repression was real. Hundreds of stories about Cretan policemen abusing children for speaking Arvanitika, propaganda of how Arvanitika is the language of backward savages and BS like it being an old Hellenic dialect, or Greek colonizers in Illyria who got Illyrianized, or Epirotans who got Albanized, etc. Now if you're going to say that this is not true, I will provide links to Greek documentaries on the unique Arvanitan Hellenic culture and their ancient Hellenic dialect. The process of assimilation was so extreme that many of them turned against Albanians and seeing us as their worst enemy. But they get surprisingly friendly and curious once they see the cross around my neck. I wonder why.

There are also cases of Arbereshe in USA knowing only that they're Italian and finding out late they're actually Arbereshe, so no surprise there.

Back to the topic, I would personally attribute the higher "Slavic" admixture to the Vlachs in both Greece and Albania. It's not far fetched to think that Thracians had more NE admixture than Illyrians and Greeks.

You seem the most level headed out of many of our kin on these forums. Good on you Shqipe!
 
Very true.

Not trying to support all their claims, but aren't there Homeric Greek words similar to Albanian? AFAIK, we share quite a few similarities, which is to be expected.


I believe Aromanians seem to be mostly of Eastern Balkan origin and very diverse, considering there are groups with lots of J2a, R1a, and I2a-Din. Bulgaria, Romania, and FYROM seem like ideal candidates for a good part of them. Like I said, that could explain the genetic variation in Thessaly, Greek Macedonia and Thrace, and even Epirus to an extent.

Or it could be simply Thracian input which predates both Vlachs and Slavs.

Honestly, I still don't buy the Slavic admixture explanation yet although seems the easiest one. I try to use several fields in my analysis before I'm fully convinced, and the most "Slavic" admixed area in Albania with a majority of I2a-Din+R1a is surprisingly the shortest and most Mediterranean looking out of all. Similarly, Romanians can appear as almost Russian or Ukrainian but they look very Mediterranean, so I believe that admixture must be ancient. I'm sure there are flaws in my explanations and I'm open to critics to better understand the situation.


Unfortunately we need way more than 1 example. I'd say at least 10 ancient samples per region to do some justice to it.


Completely agreed. I'm still somehow impressed by the results of Gheg Albanians and some mountainous Tosk areas, which make me take everything with a grain of salt.

There's more to haplgroups and admixture than simple conclusions such as Mycenaean, Dorian, Illyrian, Celtic, Slavic, etc. migrations into Greece. The only thing that it's for sure is the North to South constant migrations which have definitely changed some proportions in Peloponnesus, which in my opinion is more Central-West Balkan while Macedonia and Thrace more East Balkan.


I believe threats are to be used once you see members resorting to insults and that wasn't the case. I've already mistakenly received an infraction for smth I didn't say from her and nobody bothered to read twice my post and remove it. Basically nobody gives a crap anymore, which is a shame.


I am R1a-Z283, negative downstream(doing FGC now). My family is from Okshtuni Vogel, in an isolated part of Okshtun, Diber. As far as we trace back to its 400 years. Before which(according to oral history) we came from Mirdita, by the name Pershpalaj. The region in Mirdit they originate has oral history claiming they were mercenaries of Skanderbeg hired from Italy. Wegene(I take with a grain of salt) predicted L1029 off of my ancestrydna data. However I tested negative for this branch along with the rest of the major 18 on LivingDNA. My Yelite should clear this up. I understand L1029 is linked to Germanic, Scandinavian, and Slavic groups?
 
The program for these results is run via mlukas ( and another named Tolan ) and he has changed the Davidski program ....................and this program, for Anthrogenica members proved over 90% in accuracy for each member.
IIRC , ancient samples where added to this program, firstly by Tolan.
Davidski Old numbers for his K36 would be minimal at best..................and only davidki layout is basically what was kept.

A user(using mlukas program) did an ancient calculator for me. This was my result(regardless of accuracy/inaccuracy)

23late.jpg

23middle.jpg

23ancient.jpg

I can confirm that mlukas k36 modern analysis is extremely accurate in the case of my ancestry.

23andme ancestry results:


https://fusiontables.googleusercont...000001&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

Highest correlation values:

North_Albania 0,94805
Albanians_FYROM 0,94608
Kosovo 0,93996
South_Albania 0,93791


IT_Tuscany 0,92115
IT_Lazio 0,91967
GR_Eubea 0,91565
GR_Peloponese 0,91398
IT_Abruzzo 0,9046

IT_Marche 0,8907
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
IT_North 0,88505
IT_Friuli 0,88125
IT_Apulia 0,87693
FR_Corsica 0,87646
IT_Veneto 0,86945
Bulgaria 0,86787

IT_Campania 0,85697
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85429
South_Rumunia 0,84405
Sicily_Trapani 0,8431
GR_Andros 0,84007
Sicily_Ragusa 0,84
GR_Cyclades 0,83754
IT_Calabria 0,83117
IT_Piedmont 0,83096
Sicily_Katania 0,82732
Swiss_Italian 0,82623
GR_Kythira 0,82517
Sicily_Palermo 0,82356
Thrace 0,82115
GR_Kalymnos 0,82056
Malta 0,82027
Sicily_Agrigento 0,81671
GR_Chios 0,81511
GR_Central 0,80897
Bosniaks 1 0,80773
Bosniaks 2 0,80773
SE-Rumunia 0,80408
Montenegro 0,8019

AncestryDNA results:


https://fusiontables.googleusercont...000004&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

Highest correlation values:

Albanians_FYROM 0,94788
North_Albania 0,94758
Kosovo 0,93866
South_Albania 0,93658
Ipeiros 0,93061


IT_Lazio 0,92918
IT_Tuscany 0,92784
GR_Eubea 0,925
GR_Peloponese 0,91421
IT_Abruzzo 0,90865

IT_Marche 0,89903
IT_North 0,89421
IT_Friuli 0,89
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
FR_Corsica 0,88385
IT_Apulia 0,8819
IT_Veneto 0,8788
Bulgaria 0,86686
IT_Campania 0,86323

Macedonia_FYROM 0,8596
Sicily_Trapani 0,84935
Sicily_Ragusa 0,842
GR_Cyclades 0,84158
IT_Piedmont 0,84118
South_Rumunia 0,84083
GR_Andros 0,83979
Swiss_Italian 0,838
IT_Calabria 0,83333
Sicily_Katania 0,83029
Sicily_Palermo 0,82946
GR_Kythira 0,8288
Thrace 0,82654
Sicily_Agrigento 0,82362
Malta 0,82258
GR_Kalymnos 0,82218
GR_Chios 0,81613
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,8084
GR_Central 0,8079
Bosniaks 1 0,80487
Bosniaks 2 0,80487
Montenegro 0,80338
SE-Rumunia 0,80285

My Fathers results:

https://fusiontables.googleusercont...500006&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML
Highest correlation values:

Albanians_FYROM 0,95829
South_Albania 0,95362
North_Albania 0,94948
Kosovo 0,93335
GR_Peloponese 0,93318


GR_Eubea 0,92838
IT_Abruzzo 0,91837
IT_Lazio 0,91177
IT_Tuscany 0,90774
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
IT_Apulia 0,9009

GR_Cyclades 0,88752
IT_Marche 0,88355
IT_Campania 0,87883
Bulgaria 0,8776
Sicily_Ragusa 0,872
Sicily_Trapani 0,86855
GR_Kythira 0,86469
GR_Andros 0,86285
IT_North 0,86118
IT_Calabria 0,86092

South_Rumunia 0,85487
GR_Kalymnos 0,85478
Sicily_Katania 0,85321
IT_Friuli 0,85305
FR_Corsica 0,85228
Sicily_Agrigento 0,85078
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85022
Sicily_Palermo 0,84597
GR_Chios 0,84122
Malta 0,8364
IT_Veneto 0,83258
GR_Crete 0,83016
Thrace 0,82642
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,82304
GR_Ikaria 0,82079
Sicily_Messina 0,81875
GR_Central 0,81555
Bosniaks 1 0,80817
Bosniaks 2 0,80817
Swiss_Italian 0,80495
SE-Rumunia 0,80281
 
A user(using mlukas program) did an ancient calculator for me. This was my result(regardless of accuracy/inaccuracy)

View attachment 9133

View attachment 9134

View attachment 9135

I can confirm that mlukas k36 modern analysis is extremely accurate in the case of my ancestry.

23andme ancestry results:


https://fusiontables.googleusercont...000001&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

Highest correlation values:

North_Albania 0,94805
Albanians_FYROM 0,94608
Kosovo 0,93996
South_Albania 0,93791


IT_Tuscany 0,92115
IT_Lazio 0,91967
GR_Eubea 0,91565
GR_Peloponese 0,91398
IT_Abruzzo 0,9046

IT_Marche 0,8907
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
IT_North 0,88505
IT_Friuli 0,88125
IT_Apulia 0,87693
FR_Corsica 0,87646
IT_Veneto 0,86945
Bulgaria 0,86787

IT_Campania 0,85697
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85429
South_Rumunia 0,84405
Sicily_Trapani 0,8431
GR_Andros 0,84007
Sicily_Ragusa 0,84
GR_Cyclades 0,83754
IT_Calabria 0,83117
IT_Piedmont 0,83096
Sicily_Katania 0,82732
Swiss_Italian 0,82623
GR_Kythira 0,82517
Sicily_Palermo 0,82356
Thrace 0,82115
GR_Kalymnos 0,82056
Malta 0,82027
Sicily_Agrigento 0,81671
GR_Chios 0,81511
GR_Central 0,80897
Bosniaks 1 0,80773
Bosniaks 2 0,80773
SE-Rumunia 0,80408
Montenegro 0,8019

AncestryDNA results:


https://fusiontables.googleusercont...000004&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

Highest correlation values:

Albanians_FYROM 0,94788
North_Albania 0,94758
Kosovo 0,93866
South_Albania 0,93658
Ipeiros 0,93061


IT_Lazio 0,92918
IT_Tuscany 0,92784
GR_Eubea 0,925
GR_Peloponese 0,91421
IT_Abruzzo 0,90865

IT_Marche 0,89903
IT_North 0,89421
IT_Friuli 0,89
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
FR_Corsica 0,88385
IT_Apulia 0,8819
IT_Veneto 0,8788
Bulgaria 0,86686
IT_Campania 0,86323

Macedonia_FYROM 0,8596
Sicily_Trapani 0,84935
Sicily_Ragusa 0,842
GR_Cyclades 0,84158
IT_Piedmont 0,84118
South_Rumunia 0,84083
GR_Andros 0,83979
Swiss_Italian 0,838
IT_Calabria 0,83333
Sicily_Katania 0,83029
Sicily_Palermo 0,82946
GR_Kythira 0,8288
Thrace 0,82654
Sicily_Agrigento 0,82362
Malta 0,82258
GR_Kalymnos 0,82218
GR_Chios 0,81613
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,8084
GR_Central 0,8079
Bosniaks 1 0,80487
Bosniaks 2 0,80487
Montenegro 0,80338
SE-Rumunia 0,80285

My Fathers results:

https://fusiontables.googleusercont...500006&t=1&z=5&l=col39>>1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML
Highest correlation values:

Albanians_FYROM 0,95829
South_Albania 0,95362
North_Albania 0,94948
Kosovo 0,93335
GR_Peloponese 0,93318


GR_Eubea 0,92838
IT_Abruzzo 0,91837
IT_Lazio 0,91177
IT_Tuscany 0,90774
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
IT_Apulia 0,9009

GR_Cyclades 0,88752
IT_Marche 0,88355
IT_Campania 0,87883
Bulgaria 0,8776
Sicily_Ragusa 0,872
Sicily_Trapani 0,86855
GR_Kythira 0,86469
GR_Andros 0,86285
IT_North 0,86118
IT_Calabria 0,86092

South_Rumunia 0,85487
GR_Kalymnos 0,85478
Sicily_Katania 0,85321
IT_Friuli 0,85305
FR_Corsica 0,85228
Sicily_Agrigento 0,85078
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85022
Sicily_Palermo 0,84597
GR_Chios 0,84122
Malta 0,8364
IT_Veneto 0,83258
GR_Crete 0,83016
Thrace 0,82642
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,82304
GR_Ikaria 0,82079
Sicily_Messina 0,81875
GR_Central 0,81555
Bosniaks 1 0,80817
Bosniaks 2 0,80817
Swiss_Italian 0,80495
SE-Rumunia 0,80281

Very interesting that you're closer to Tuscany and Lazio than to Greeks. Is that true for most Albanians?
 
On many Calculators, K36 included:
I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.
 
On many Calculators, K36 included:
I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.

Also: a S.Italian/North European = Venetian.
 
Here's my K 36 Admixture result. I do believe I have NW Greek and/or Albanian ties. Not sure about Macedonian result.
Using 1 population approximation:

1 Greek_Macedonia @ 4,601119
2 Albania_North @ 4,964581
3 Greek_Peloponnes @ 4,978364
4 Albania_South @ 5,201673
5 Albania_FYROM @ 5,441659
6 Gr_Eubea @ 5,559489
7 IT_Tuscany @ 5,594432
8 Macedonia_FYROM @ 5,684916
9 Kosovo @ 5,769599
10 GR_Cyclades @ 5,986484
11 Albania_Montenegro @ 6,097649
12 Bulgaria @ 6,133917
13 Gr_Andros @ 6,143467
14 Gr_Chios @ 6,23868
15 South_Romania @ 6,348835
16 IT_Friuli @ 6,387784
17 IT_North @ 6,700474
18 Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro @ 6,711725
19 Askhenazi @ 6,796111
20 Romania_SE @ 6,984716
337 iterations.
 
Very interesting that you're closer to Tuscany and Lazio than to Greeks. Is that true for most Albanians?
I am not certain for Lazio, but in the case of Tuscan, I have noticed for most northern Albanians Tuscan does come before Greek, however not by significant distance.
The Tuscan is always higher for me. Oddly enough my and my father IT k36 component is 31 and 35 percent respectively. Yet , the highest mean average is for Tuscans, with 26-28 if I'm not mistaken. Our result in this component is very atypical. Though, a few Albanian members from anthro who had mothers from my fathers village in Diber Vogel, Albania had higher elevation of IT compared to other Albanian. Though not as significantly atypical as me and my father. So, idk if it's relative to an older mixture?

Some oral history in the village we originate claims our ancestor was a Condottieri hired from the Apennines by Skanderbeg. Though, I can't confirm this. I suppose my Yelite FGC test will shed some light on this.
If there is any weight to the story, perhaps it explains the elevation of this component?
Still doesn't explain why it's so elevated. As such we get modeled as 60 Albanian_FYROM 30 Italian(mostly Tuscan and Lazio)and 10 Sardinian in nmonte runs.
 
I wonder how much Mycenaean an extreme southern Greek would have. The study says there's 70 percent in modern Greeks, but that's averaging in the northerners and we know the mycenaen percentage diminishes further up north.
 
I would guess someone with roots in Mani or Tsakonia.
 
Guys

WHY DON'T YOU MAKE A THREAD ABOUT ALBANIAN DNA

AWAY FROM THIS THREAD
 
On many Calculators, K36 included:
I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.
Yeah, there's a pca showing where south Italians from different regions would cluster. It was just posted here this week. Since Dibran is getting Lazio as his top population, he'd end up halfway between the north end and south end of Italy.

Makes sense given it's location, it's like having one north Italian and one south Italian parent.
 
TSI is, so far as I know, the large cohort of samples taken in a small village northeast of Florence. The other Tuscan samples are from further south toward Lazio.

Lazaridis uses in his PCA the other Tuscan samples (Tuscan HGDP) from further south toward Lazio.
 
Yeah, there's a pca showing where south Italians from different regions would cluster. It was just posted here this week. Since Dibran is getting Lazio as his top population, he'd end up halfway between the north end and south end of Italy.
Makes sense given it's location, it's like having one north Italian and one south Italian parent.

Albanian is usually my top. If it's Italian it's usually Tuscan then lazio then abruzzo. As far as we know for certain we are Albanian. At least 400 years that we can trace.

Though my mothers ancestor had intermarriage with Italians and Greeks so it could explain the matching.
 

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