Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously.
As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.



The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.

Romanians and Bulgarians aren't as Slavic (genetically) as the others. The Italian situations is obvious. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here.

.2-14.4% "Slavic" ancestry tested in some random villages doesn't pull Pelos into the Iron Age. Only heavy, real IA ancestry can do that.
 
22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian.
you can also use the scythian samples, the getae, the cimmerian, the szolad and HRV samples to measure the iron age balkan ancestry
 
22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian.

Interesting, still 1 out of 5 in South Greece.

And what if we compare mainland Greeks to Log01 and Log02. How much Slavic admixture do they have. Macedonians, Thessalians and Peloponessians.

How much Slavic admixture do Log01 and Log02 have compared to Mycenaeans?
 
Romanians and Bulgarians aren't as Slavic (genetically) as the others. The Italian situations is obvious. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here.

.2-14.4% "Slavic" ancestry tested in some random villages doesn't pull Pelos into the Iron Age. Only heavy, real IA ancestry can do that.

Seriously "cousins" are popping from Iron Age Migrations? Anything past 300 years from those cousin matches is completely useless.

What do you think of the recent paper where Peloponnesians are shifted 13% to Russia_Ingria_IA compared to Roman Age Serbian samples and for Greek Macedonians it's 23%. I would bet big bucks that Classical Age Peloponnesians will be essentially Mycenaean-like, exculding Anatolian and other related admixture which could've gone there in the big cities.

Also how much "Mycenaean" were the Classical Greeks of Peloponnese after the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Migrations in your opinion? Because it kinda seems like a large scale replacement based on your hypothesis.
 
Interesting, still 1 out of 5 in South Greece.
And what if we compare mainland Greeks to Log01 and Log02. How much Slavic admixture do they have. Macedonians, Thessalians and Peloponessians.
How much Slavic admixture do Log01 and Log02 have compared to Mycenaeans?

I don't think you can estimate the Slavic admixture with those samples because they plot north on most of Greeks and overlap with some few.
 
I don't think you can estimate the Slavic admixture with those samples because they plot north on most of Greeks and overlap with some few.
I understand, but I am just using their methodology. Migrations are complicated. These Northern Greeks could have been outliers, but then again so could the IA people in the Danube.
Some things don't add up to me. Supposedly Albanians are half Slavic. Then why do they plot away from Slavs? Even from Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs.
And then there is the thing with E-V13. It is quite remarkable that Thessalians, among Greeks, have most of it. While the Vlachs have the least (aside from Cretans).
So from where and when did this E-V13 arrive in Thessaly? And why were these Northern Greeks so different from the ones further South? Is there a connection?
 
I understand, but I am just using their methodology. Migrations are complicated. These Northern Greeks could have been outliers, but then again so could the IA people in the Danube.

Some things don't add up to me. Supposedly Albanians are half Slavic. Then why do they plot away from Slavs? Even from Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs.

And then there is the thing with E-V13. It is quite remarkable that Thessalians, among Greeks, have most of it. While the Vlachs have the least (aside from Cretans).

So from where and when did this E-V13 arrive in Thessaly? And why were these Northern Greeks so different from the ones further South?
This is controversial but Albanians probably came from north into modern Albanian only after the Slavs reached Bulgaria.
This could explain why they are close to modern Bulgarians despite having significantly less I2a and R1a.

Vlachs diverge from each other we cannot analyze them and E-V13 in Greece with the limited sources we have.
There are numerous explanations such as:
- Thessalians and Vlachs were both enriched with E-V13.
- Thessalians were enriched with E-V13, Vlachs were not or the vice versa.
- Vlachs were enriched with E-V13 but not numerous enough to influence the numbers in Thessaly.
- Vlachs were quite numerous and did in fact decrease the E-V13 in Thessaly.
And so and so forth.
 
This is controversial but Albanians probably came from north into modern Albanian only after the Slavs reached Bulgaria.
This could explain why they are close to modern Bulgarians despite having significantly less I2a and R1a.

Vlachs diverge from each other we cannot analyze them and E-V13 in Greece with the limited sources we have.
There are numerous explanations such as:
- Thessalians and Vlachs were both enriched with E-V13.
- Thessalians were enriched with E-V13, Vlachs were not or the vice versa.
- Vlachs were enriched with E-V13 but not numerous enough to influence the numbers in Thessaly.
- Vlachs were quite numerous and did in fact decrease the E-V13 in Thessaly.
And so and so forth.

So far I believe that probably Tosk albanian have been located between Drin and Shkumbin, and they moved south with coming of Gegs Albanians from north.

Slavs should have found them in this respective position. The spread of the Y-Dna of Albanians does not oppose this scenario.


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Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously.
As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.



The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.

In 1395 Argos was raided by the Ottomans and the Venetians repopulated the town by bringing in Albanians. The light cavalry of the Venetian army was made up of stradiotti, Albanian mercenaries, known for their unorthodox tactics and cruelty. In 1463 the Venetians surrendered Argos, but they were able to retain control of Nauplia until 1540.

https://www.romeartlover.it/Argo.html
 
Mate I'm albanian from kosovo and Peloponesus is by far my highest match on 23andme.

There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.

It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database. If it was some exact science, then Albanians would get Epirus as their closest region and Romanians would get Thessaly/Epirus/Macedonia (where Vlachs actually live).

you can also use the scythian samples, the getae, the cimmerian, the szolad and HRV samples to measure the iron age balkan ancestry

Not really, the new Balkan samples are on a cline with some being close to modern Greek islanders and ancient Anatolians (so very far from Szolad and HRV). The Balkan population at the time of the Slavic settlement was more southern-shifted than previously believed, it looks like.
 
The Balkan population at the time of the Slavic settlement was more southern-shifted than previously believed, it looks like.

But the Illyrians were more Northern shifted than believed it seems Judging from previous samples.

Is it possible that there simply was a lot of genetic variety in the Balkans, post IA?
 
It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database. If it was some exact science, then Albanians would get Epirus as their closest region and Romanians would get Thessaly/Epirus/Macedonia (where Vlachs actually live).


I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.

There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post
 
Peloponnesians are a little more southern shifted than Albanians, according to one PC from a recent study, maybe the Roman cities in the Balkans. Greeks also have more male J2a than J2b than Albanians, so there is that difference—but someone said Arvanites have more J2a than J2b, which would be interesting if true.

There is also the other half of the equation: women. Sometimes maybe there is too much focus on male haplogroups.

Also, when we talk about descent from ancient Greeks, we should consider neighboring populations for study, to see if there is evidence of some relationship. The Greeks were a large population in the southern Balkans. It would be shocking if the ancients completely disappeared.
 
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I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.

There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post

As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.

Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.

Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.
 
As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.

Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.

Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.

I would think that the Albanians have some intimate tie to all this as well, being that the Albanian language is full of Latin.
 
It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database.

[/FONT]
I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.

There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post

I believe peloponnesian is right on this. The sub-regions 23andme assigns seem to be also based on self-declared places of origin of the participants' ancestors (and not solely on genetic similarity) so representation does play a significant role. For example Bulgarians too get Peloponnese as #1 Greek Sub-region. This would change if more people with ancestry from Western Thrace and Macedonia got tested.

More on this:
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003184973-Recent-Ancestor-Locations
 
As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.

Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.

Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.

Arche, disappointing with you here , you can’t understand Albanians and their origin without studying vllah, aromanian, and Romanian.


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I would think that the Albanians have some intimate tie to all this as well, being that the Albanian language is full of Latin.

Certainly. Illyrian wars were some of the first wars of expansion of the Romans beyond the peninsula.

My guess though is that some of the linguistic similarities are not just pure loan words.
Given what we have seen genetically, Balkans and Italy have been connected way before the Romans. So there might have been some cousinry going on between Balkan pops and Latins or whatever.

Like knowing a couple of language I always stumble upon interesting stuff.

Volimo - (we)want/love in some Serbian/Croatian

Vogliamo - (we)want in Italian

Volition - faculty of using ones will English/French?

Guest - English
Gosti - Guest.

Now it is obvious such fringe and basic concepts are of IE or proto-IE nature. At least that is what I would think. Unless these ethnicities/languages did not "love/want" things before Latins taught them how to?

I always found it funny that certain Albanian dialects, use Mënej as extreme anger/hatered/antipathy. And the same word is the same word Homer used to start the Illiad... It is the etymological root of Maniac.
Certainly the world for hate/anger is not one you would typically borrow.

The issue in Albanian studies I feel is the nuances due to 1400-1600 years since the Gheg - Tosk split, and local dialects being isolated and evolving over time and differentiating. Not even Danish and Swedish have split as early as these dialects, and in reality just knowing how grammar changes in coloquial talk from Prishtine to Vlore, I would bet you can consider them two languages the same way Danish and Swedish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Danish

And trust me, Albanians will make fun of how various Albanians talk, especially southerners towards northerners (since its more alien to them, being further away from the standard Albanian codified by Hoxha, Elbasan Dialect was taken as a base), probably not as much as Danes and Swedes do with each other though.

Now literary Albanian/standard Albanian bridges the gap for serious matters. But if you record a conversation in Prishtina in full slang and play it to someone from Vlore, I would be interested to know how much of the contents would be understood. And comparatively how that would relate to a Dane hearing some Swede conversation. However, playing a conversation from some fellows from Vlore to Prishtina Albanians would probably be understood to a much higher degree, again due to standard Albanian being based on a more souther dialect.

If it was only about vocabulary it would be no big deal. We are talking basic grammar changes.

Jam kon. (I am been)I have been.
Kam qene. I have been

Ka me shku. (Have to go) Will go.
Do te shkoj. Will go.

Having a Toske speaking mothers side and Gheg speaking father side, you notice such things.
During early childhood I was raised in a southern Gheg/Toske speaking city, when I moved to an Eastern Gheg city for preschool I could not understand what fellows were saying to me, heck even older teachers predating "Albanian standard language" could not understand me. Made for awkward situations.

I overshared a bit here. But I feel its an interesting tidbit.
 
Arche, disappointing with you here , you can’t understand Albanians and their origin without studying vllah, aromanian, and Romanian.


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Pse mo vlla? oops. Why bro? It is clear some of our vocabulary might be of pre IE origin, or maybe even post IE but paleo Balkan sprachbund related ancestry?

If you can use analysis of Latin and ancient Greek loanwords into Albanian to learn about its history / geolocation when the loans were taken, certainly you can use Romanian and Vlach? I mean... there is whole degrees of study, linguistics appointed to such matters.

I mean come on, them using fara for people ​has to amuse you at least a little bit no? I find it fascinating. Cause usually words for seed/people are rarely borrowed.

Edit: Man its obvious I am tired and completely misread what you wrote. You are right, and have the right to be disappointed. Not deleting my lame response for the lol.
 
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9474% / 0.01947414
76.0Sicilian_East
19.0Ukrainian
5.0Armenian_Hemsheni

Without Armenian:
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.0028% / 0.02002754
82.2Sicilian_East
17.8Ukrainian


Maniotes:
Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.6869% / 0.02686919
88.2Sicilian_East
11.8Ukrainian
 

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