Genetics Question

johen

Elite member
Messages
973
Reaction score
124
Points
43
Question 1: Can R1a m513 be directly mutated into R1a z93?
And Can R1a z93 originate only in M513, not in M420?

“mutations understood to be equivalent to m420 include m449, m511, m513, l62, and l63”

in this work, we first aim to address the question of the familial and social organization of scytho-siberian groups by studying the genetic relationship of 29 individuals from the aldy-bel and sagly cultures using autosomal strs. (…) were obtained from 5 archeological sites located in the valley of the eerbek river in tuva republic, russia (fig. 1).

y-chromosome haplogroups were first assigned using the isogg 2018 nomenclature. in order to improve the precision of haplogroup definition, we also analyzed a set of y-chromosome snp (supplementary table 2). nine samples belonged to the r1a-m513 haplogroup (defined by marker m513) and two of these nine samples were characterized as belonging to the r1a1a1b2-z93 haplogroup or one of its subclades. six samples belonged to the q1b1a-l54 haplogroup and five of these six samples belonged to the q1b1a3-l330 subclade. one sample belonged to the n-m231 haplogroup.

in the same way, although two groups, of two and three individuals, shared haplotypes belonging to the r1a-m513 haplogroup, these groups likely include a father/son pair (arz-t2 and arz-t12). therefore, among nine r1a-m513 men, we found six independent haplotypes, one being present in two independent instances. all r1a-m513 haplotypes, however, including those attributed to the r1a1a1b2-z93 subclade, only differed by one-step mutations, across 5 loci at most. all r1a-m513 individuals were buried on the same site, eki-ottug 2, in a single kurgan.

R1a-Z93+maps+small.png


Modern tuva people: M198

tuvan-clans-y-dna.jpg

Interestingly, in western Truvinian sample, the frequency of haplogroup R1a1a was considerably
lower than in the central sample. Based on the closeness of the Altai, which is populated by the representatives of a more Caucasoid SouthSiberian racial
type, it would be reasonable to expect the west–east decrease of the R1a1a frequency on the territory of Tuva. However, this was not observed, and the change of the haplogroup frequency was rather the opposite, as the eastern samples demonstrated maximum frequency of this haplogroup. At the first glance, the result obtained is paradoxical. Specifically, in terms of anthropology, the most Caucasoid population of the western parts of Tuva displays the minimum of haplogroup R1a1a, while in the most Mongoloid population of Todja, the maximum of this haplogroup is observed


modern western chinese: M17
Geographic RegionPopulationMarkerHaplogroup
YunnanHuiR1a-M17R1a1*
GuizhouHanR1a-M17R1a1*
JiangsuHanR1a-M17R1a1*
HenanHanR1a-M17R1a1*
HenanHanR1a-M17R1a1*
HenanHanR1a-M17R1a1*
HenanHanR1a-M17R1a1*
HenanHanR1a-M17R1a1*
AnhuiHanR1a-M17R1a1*
AnhuiHanR1a-M17R1a1*
ShanxiHanR1a-M17R1a1*
ShanxiHanR1a-M17R1a1*
ShannxiHanR1a-M17R1a1*
GansuHanR1a-M17R1a1*
GansuHanR1a-M17R1a1*
GansuHanR1a-M17R1a1*
LiaoningHanR1a-M17R1a1*
XizangTibetanR1a-M17R1a1*
XizangTibetanR1a-M17R1a1*
XizangTibetanR1a-M17R1a1*
Inner MongoliaMongolianR1a-M17R1a1*
Inner MongoliaMongolianR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangUygurR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangHazakR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangHazakR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangHazakR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangHazakR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangHazakR1a-M17R1a1*
NingxiaHuiR1a-M17R1a1*
NingxiaHuiR1a-M17R1a1*
XinjiangXibeR1a-M17R1a1*
 
Last edited:
Question 1: Can R1a m513 be directly mutated into R1a z93?
And Can R1a z93 originate only in M513, not in M420?

“mutations understood to be equivalent to m420 include m449, m511, m513, l62, and l63”

Modern tuva people: M198

tuvan-clans-y-dna.jpg

Someone in the other forum said that EHG has M198. Is it correct?

"For instance, the Kareiean hunter-gatehrer is M198+, which is a mutation just upstream of M417 found in the Sredny Stog sample."


ancient-modern-european-admixture.jpg

 
Question 1: Can R1a m513 be directly mutated into R1a z93?
And Can R1a z93 originate only in M513, not in M420?

“mutations understood to be equivalent to m420 include m449, m511, m513, l62, and l63”

R-Z93 is downstream of R-M459>M198>M417>Z645,

The quote you provided says "mutations understood to be equivalent to M420" which in other words they are phyloequivalent; meaning they define this specific haplogroup. SNPs are like names in a family tree. You aren't descended from your uncle, but you are descended from your father, you share a common ancestor with your uncle (common ancestor being the grandfather), this is much like how phylogeny of the Y-tree works.

For example R-Z283 is downstream of R-Z645, just like R-Z93. Haplogroups R-Z93 and R-Z283 are not direct descendants of each other, but instead share a common ancestor in R-Z645.

Here are some Y-Full links to help better visualize the phylogeny or R1a. The links take a while to load as the R1a and R1b trees on YFull are quite extensive in comparison to other haplogroups.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M198/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

Someone in the other forum said that EHG has M198. Is it correct?

"For instance, the Kareiean hunter-gatehrer is M198+, which is a mutation just upstream of M417 found in the Sredny Stog sample."


ancient-modern-european-admixture.jpg


Indeed M198 is just upstream of M417, note the (xM458) designation in R-M198(xM458), this means they didn't test for M458. Do you have a link to the source for that image and the M198, M417 info for those respective populations? Did they test those Karelians for M417 at all?
 
1. For example R-Z283 is downstream of R-Z645, just like R-Z93. Haplogroups R-Z93 and R-Z283 are not direct descendants of each other, but instead share a common ancestor in R-Z645.

2. Indeed M198 is just upstream of M417, note the (xM458) designation in R-M198(xM458), this means they didn't test for M458. Do you have a link to the source for that image and the M198, M417 info for those respective populations? Did they test those Karelians for M417 at all?

1. Why do you think modern european barely has z93? We already know that CWC has Z645. I JUST think that south asian R1a -z93 directly originated in M513, not z645, like scythian above. I don't know, but I think CWC z645 could not be mutated into z93 in reality, even if z645 is upstream of z93. So their descendants has no z93.

2. sorry, I have no link, I just kept the image from Carlos blog. And I don't know they tested, b/c I just quoted somebody's opinion in the other forum.
 
1. Why do you think modern european barely has z93? We already know that CWC has Z645. I JUST think that south asian R1a -z93 directly originated in M513, not z645, like scythian above. I don't know, but I think CWC z645 could not be mutated into z93 in reality, even if z645 is upstream of z93. So their descendants has no z93.

Z93 did not directly originate in M513, M513 is phyloequivalent to L62, L63, L120, M420, M449, M511 all of which define R1a. R-Z93 is downstream of Z645 which is downstream of M417 which is downstream of M198 to M459 to the basal position of R1a. R-Z93 cannot be Z93 if it is missing requisite mutations that precede it. Meaning if someone were R-M513+ but L62-,M449-,M420-,L120-,L63-, M511- they couldn't be Z93+, let alone R1a, they'd be some kind of R1, pre-R1a if that were the case. YFull has an extensive tree, it may take some work to find the positions you seek due to differing SNP names but it is doable and informative.

Unfortunately I have no real strong idea as to why modern Europe has lower Z93 levels, and frankly it probably has something to do with successful lineages of other haplogroups and founder effects within Europe that caused this, with perhaps areas further east not being affected, hence the success of Z93. Not really much I can say, I'd leave that brainstorming to R1a experts.

2. sorry, I have no link, I just kept the image from Carlos blog. And I don't know they tested, b/c I just quoted somebody's opinion in the other forum.

No worries, was just curious. I'll dig around and see if I can find any links to the papers.
 
What is a difference between EHG and WSHG, even if WSHG has a combination of 30 EHG /50 ANE/ 20 EAST ASIAN?

In the map of the Havard paper, Botai is with WSHG and east asian:

caucasus-cline-narasimhan.jpg


but in damgaard paper, botai with EHG and east asian:

damgaard-south-asia.jpg


see also another admixture model. Actually steppe_MLBA_EAST = steppe_MLBA_west + 9% WSHG, however, only EHG increased w/o East asian in the steppe MLBA East. Moreover, where did ZEVAKINSKY-LBA get that much EHG from?

iir_mfa6ns5v.png
 
1. Why do you think modern european barely has z93? We already know that CWC has Z645. I JUST think that south asian R1a -z93 directly originated in M513, not z645, like scythian above. I don't know, but I think CWC z645 could not be mutated into z93 in reality, even if z645 is upstream of z93. So their descendants has no z93.

Wherever M417 or Z645 were, there was Z283. wait and see more research;


BH4C0n5.png


Sample Culture Haplogroup marker

Kudruküla3 CCC R1a5)YP1272
Ardu1_r CWC R1a)Z645
Ardu1_d CWC R1a)Z645
Ardu2 CWC R1a)Z645
Kunila1 CWC R1a)Z645
Kunila2 CWC R1a1)Z283

https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j....ent/76ab1234-32f5-4905-afa4-1089b54ef69c/mmc1
 
Last edited:
Thank you for sharing, you have provided very important data, especially for some cities in China.
Our team has also recently studied related genetic issues.
ClipartKey_1523184.jpg
pic @source
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by johen
Can you tell me the difference between qpAdm and CP/NNLS model at the newest schythian paper, page 5? which one is more accurate?.
In the paper, yamna kalmykia, samara have altai admixture in the qpAdm model, not in CP/NNLS.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Beginning_and_End_of_the_Scythian_Dominance

What struck me at first is the presence of Mongoloid admixture in most samples (only R437, R475 and R851 lack it). This is mostly Siberian admixture, but there are also traces of East Asian and Southeast Asian. This alludes to a sort of ancient Altaic admixture. It peaks at 1.78% in the Protovillanovan individual, who is the oldest, and would be a relatively new arrival to Italy. Does that mean that the Proto-Italics possessed some kind of Siberian admixture, which spread throughout Italy and faded as they intermingled with locals? Nowadays it's so diluted as to be virtually undetectable among modern Italians (bar a few exceptions).

gamerz_J said...@SamuelAndrews
Are you sure? Because based on some posts on here or other websites, qpGraph models I have seen and a fair amount of papers, there is East Eurasian admixture in ANE.
I am not saying East Asian proper, but I do not know, hence why I am asking. The ADMIXTURE analysis by that Narasimhan et al paper seemed to suggest some East Asian in Yamnaya_Samara for example mediated by Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers. However, I also know that ADMIXTURE estimates should be treated with caution when it comes to ancient DNA or complex mixtures.
If you have any analyses or papers on the issue, I would greatly appreciate them.

Is it true?
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by johen
Can you tell me the difference between qpAdm and CP/NNLS model at the newest schythian paper, page 5? which one is more accurate?.
In the paper, yamna kalmykia, samara have altai admixture in the qpAdm model, not in CP/NNLS.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hian_Dominance

looks like yamna is an admixture of WHG, farmer, american indian and east asian.


41598_2020_63138_Fig4_HTML.png


"In order to trace ancestral whgs of the samples we performed ADMIXTURE analyses between 2 K and 10 K using 10 replicates per run with the total of 214 world-wide modern populations and 485 ancient individuals grouped into 123 populations/individual samples. As expected the Admixture analyses showed that Polish Eneolithic individuals were carriers of three major components: West and North European HG (WHG; orange), Near East Neolithic (NEN; red), blue and green components of Asian origins (SA – South Asian - navy blue; NEA - North East Asian - light blue; SEA – South East Asian - light green and NSA –North/South American – dark green). In that respect, they were similar to earlier published Admixture analyses11 and revealed that individuals from Święte, Szczytna and Mirocin were carriers of larger NEN and SEA components than the representatives of Yamnaya. Polish CWC individuals also had traces of yet another component which is most prominent in Sub-Saharan and other modern African populations. According to earlier research the component was found to be more evident in Neolithic European populations than those with Steppe ancestry. In terms of differences between groups of individuals it seems that members of Group I carried larger proportion of SA and less of SEA component, while individuals in Groups III and IV had larger SEA and NEN components. This variation is mirrored by variation and component distribution patterns observed in previously published individuals form central European Neolithic (Figs. 4A, S23). Our findings point to variable local admixture patterns between earlier Neolithic populations from southern Poland and incoming Steppe nomads as well as structuring between CWC groups form different parts of present-day Poland."
 
looks like yamna is an admixture of WHG, farmer, american indian and east asian.


41598_2020_63138_Fig4_HTML.png

The other people also catches a point of problem regarding genetic analysis:


Jaakko Häkkinen
said...
Besides, genetic results are not any more reliable than the linguistic results. With different methods you get different results, and even with the same method you get different results, depending on the sample.

see anther yamna admixtures so far. It remind me of dinaric, armenoid, alpine and pamir.

:
1-s2.0-S0960982219307122-gr3.jpg


anatolia-neolithic-steppe-eneolithic.png
 
Question 1: Can R1a m513 be directly mutated into R1a z93?
And Can R1a z93 originate only in M513, not in M420?

“mutations understood to be equivalent to m420 include m449, m511, m513, l62, and l63”


in this work, we first aim to address the question of the familial and social organization of scytho-siberian groups by studying the genetic relationship of 29 individuals from the aldy-bel and sagly cultures using autosomal strs. (…) were obtained from 5 archeological sites located in the valley of the eerbek river in tuva republic, russia (fig. 1).

y-chromosome haplogroups were first assigned using the isogg 2018 nomenclature. in order to improve the precision of haplogroup definition, we also analyzed a set of y-chromosome snp (supplementary table 2). nine samples belonged to the r1a-m513 haplogroup (defined by marker m513) and two of these nine samples were characterized as belonging to the r1a1a1b2-z93 haplogroup or one of its subclades. six samples belonged to the q1b1a-l54 haplogroup and five of these six samples belonged to the q1b1a3-l330 subclade. one sample belonged to the n-m231 haplogroup.

in the same way, although two groups, of two and three individuals, shared haplotypes belonging to the r1a-m513 haplogroup, these groups likely include a father/son pair (arz-t2 and arz-t12). therefore, among nine r1a-m513 men, we found six independent haplotypes, one being present in two independent instances. all r1a-m513 haplotypes, however, including those attributed to the r1a1a1b2-z93 subclade, only differed by one-step mutations, across 5 loci at most. all r1a-m513 individuals were buried on the same site, eki-ottug 2, in a single kurgan.






R1a-Z93+maps+small.png
Can south asian's L657 and steppe admixture originate in scythian, Hun and other nomads?
It is b/c there is no finding of L657 among ancient samples in IAMC. However it is a FACT that z93 migrated to south asia from altai.
Moreover is a possibility that L657 is not a PIE marker b/c z93 can not explain in Iran case.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1:

"Out of the 6 individuals in the Hun-cline (including DA127 and KRY001) four carried
the R1a1a1b2 (R1a-Z93) Y-chromosomal haplogroup (Y-Hg), and one carried Q
(Supplementary Table 1a), indicating that these Hg-s could be common among the European
Huns, most likely inherited from Xiongnus18. Considering all published post-Xiongnu Hun
era genomes12,13, we counted 10/23 R1a-Z93 and 9/23 Q Hgs, supporting this observation"

"Xiongnu/Hun-related ancestries were more common in certain cemeteries, for example
it was detected in most samples from Hortobágy-Árkus (ARK), Szegvár-Oromdűlő (SZOD),
Makó-Mikócsa-halom (MM) and Szarvas-Grexa (SZRV). Y-chromosomal data seem to
corroborate this conclusion, as 8/10 males from ARK carried Y-Hg Q, while 2/10 R1a-Z94,
3/3 males from SZRV carried R1a-Z94 and 2/2 males from MM carried Hg Q
(Supplementary Table 1a)."

"Avar_Asia_Core or Xiongnu/Hun-related sources, accompanied by Iranian
associated 3rd sources (Supplementary Table 7e). This result was again in line with Y-Hg
data, as nearly
all Conquest period males with R1a-Z94or Q Hgs belonged to the last
category (Supplementary Table 1a)."

It means that sagart scythian ancestors have z94
 
^
L657 mistery, now Z2103;

Lots of R1b were found in Tarim basin Chemurcheck culture.
What kind of relationship between them and afansivevo R1b?
Their skull shape and lead ring culture is closely related with seima turbino. This lead technology went straight to china. WSHG z2103 was found in sintashta which was surrounded by seima turbino. According to Jeong paper 2020, their admixture is similar to Dali EBA.
-------------
C2043 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[71] 4521-3927* C2 no call
C3343 Bronze Age Afanasievo[72] 5043-4861 C2a1a1 no call
C1639 Late Bronze Age Andronovo[99] 3570-3412 Q1b1 Q1b1
C1702 Bronze Age - 4200# Q1b1~ Q1b1a3
C2036 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[71] 4521-3927* Q2 Q2
C2034 Bronze Age Afanasievo[69] 4574-4422 Q2a Q2a
C794 Bronze Age - 4574-4422* Q2a Q2a
C3339 Bronze Age Afanasievo[96-97] 4963-4839 R1b1a1b R1b1a1b
C1701 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[74] 4200# R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 R1b1a1b1b3a
C1704 Bronze Age - 4200# R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b
C1700 Bronze Age - 4200# R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b3a
C1707 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[70] 4814-4450 R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b
C2037 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[71] 4521-3927* R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b
C2046 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[71] 4148-3927 R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b
C2048 Bronze Age Chemurcheck[71] 4352-4096 R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b
C3340 Bronze Age Afanasievo[96-97] 4963-4526* R1b1a1b1b R1b1a1b1b3a
Bronze and Iron Age population movements underlie Xinjiang population history
“unfortunately, in china we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the chemurchek culture. kovalev, erdenebaatar, tishkin and grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated chemurchek stone boxes (kovalev and erdenebaatar 2014a; tishkin et al. 2015). such lead rings are typical for elunino culture,which occupied the entire west altai after 2400–2300 bce (tishkin et al. 2015). this culture had developed a tradition of bronze metallurgy with various dopants, primarily tin. thus, the tradition of bronze metallurgy as early as this time could have penetrated the mongolian altai far to the south."

"Bronze drinking vessels famous for their intricate carvings and used by the aristocracy in the Chinese Shang dynasty (1555-1145 BCE) are known to have been fabricated with alloys containing soft metallic lead. The contribution of lead leaching from such vessels into the fermented grain wines drunk by the Chinese nobility in ancient times has not been previously estimated.
Significant lead contamination of Shaoxing rice wine was detected when it was left in bronze goblets fabricated to resemble the Shang dynasty vessels. If a liter of contaminated wine was drunk daily, the daily intake of lead could have been as high as 85 mg. Such a high degree of contamination could cause chronic lead poisoning, affecting the health of the Shang nobility who used bronze beverage containers, before lead was excluded from the manufacture of bronze.”
“the origins of the Chemurchek have been controversial (Kovalev, 2014). Once 107 introduced, ruminant dairying became widespread by the Middle/Late Bronze Age (MLBA, 108 here defined as 1900-900 BCE), being practiced in the west and north at sites associated with 109 Deer Stone-Khirigsuur Complex (DSKC) and in the east in association with the Ulaanzuukh 110 culture (Jeong et al., 2018; Wilkin et al., 2019).”
“The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society 200 (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae, 201 has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009). 202 Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China 203 (Jia and Betts, 2010). We analyzed two Chemurchek individuals from the southern Altai site 204 of Yagshiin Huduu and one from Khundii Gobi (KUM001) in the northern Altai. Compared to 205 Afanasievo_Mongolia, the Yagshiin Huduu individuals also show a high degree of Western 206 ancestry but are displaced in PCA (Fig. 2), having also a strong genetic affinity with ANE207 related ancient individuals such as AfontovaGora3 (AG3), West_Siberia_N, and Botai (Fig. 208 3a; Fig. S9, S11). We find that these Chemurchek individuals (Chemurchek_Altai) are 209 genetically similar to Dali_EBA (Fig. 3a), a contemporaneous individual from eastern 210 Kazakhstan (Narasimhan et al., 2019). “
https://www.researchgate.net/public...r_genetic_history_of_Eurasia's_Eastern_Steppe

"This paper first examines craniological materials of the Chemurchek culture of the Early bronze age in Western Mongolia. Significant morphological differences are discovered as compared with the previous Proto-Europeoid population of the Afanasyevo culture in Southern Siberia and Central Asia. The anthropological type of the people of the Chemurchek culture is characterized by mongoloid features, which are stronger expressed in women. The Chemurchek population most resembles people of the Serovo and Glazkov cultures of the Circumbaikal region. Certain morphological closeness is shown by bearers of archaeological cultures of the Early bronze age of the south of Siberia and Central Asia: the Elunin culture in Altay and Eastern Kazakhstan, at the burial ground of Aymyrlyg in Tuva (in males), Ust-Tartas, Odinovo and early Krotov cultures at the burial ground of Sopka II in Baraba forest-steppe, as well as materials from the cemetery of Gumugou in Xinjiang. Possibly, this closeness is a reflection of a common anthropological substratum, since an anthropological type similar to the Circumbaikal one is recorded in craniological materials of the Neolithic-Eneolithic burial grounds in the northern foothills of the Altay-Sayan mountains.
DOI: 10.31600/978-5-907053-35-9-79-81

Publication Date: 2019"


According to A. A. Kovalev, it is genetically related to the megalithic culture of (Southern) France 3200-2700. BC e. (Kersi dolmens, Angevin dolmens, dry-walled chamber tombs, ceramics of the Ferrier culture, stone statues of the Gard group and the Sion-Aosta type). [1] A specific feature of the design of the Chemurchek burial mounds - multiple perimeter mounds, partially overlapping each other - he raises to multiple perimeter mounds with facades of megalithic tombs of Brittany, Normandy and Poitiers of the 5th-4th millennium BC. e. [one]
It had an impact on the Seima-Turbino phenomenon . [2]
Material culture [ edit | edit code ]

Basically, this culture has been studied in terms of its burial structures. The tombs are of the corridor type. There are burials made in the form of a four-wheeled wagon with hubs associated with Eastern Europe, mainly with the Yamnaya culture , although one burial is hypothetically closer to the Transcaucasian finds [2] . Pottery finds analogues in the Yamnaya culture [2] and the Neolithic of France, there is ceramics associated with the neighboring Elunin culture [1] . The tradition of making stone vessels dates back to the Caucasian. There, or to the Central Asian, goes back the tradition of making lead and bronze temporal rings [2]. Many anthropomorphic statues have been found that have analogues in southern France, similar statues from the north Black Sea coast have less similarity with the discovered statues [1] .
No intermediate sites associated with this culture have been found between Western Europe and Altai [1] .
Ethnicity and paleogenetics [ edit | edit code ] ]


admixture by Holland
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2017_Hollard_Tableau14.jpg

"the legacy of the Yamnaya-era spread into Mongolia continued in two individuals from the Chemurchek culture whose ancestry can be only modeled by using Afanasievo as one of the sources (49.0%±2.6%). This model fits even when ancient European farmers are included in the outgroups, showing that if the long-distance transfer of West European megalithic cultural traditions to people of the Chemurchek culture that has been suggested in the archaeological literature occurred,26 it must have been through spread of ideas rather than through movement of people.

Both sampled Chemurchek individuals are of haplogroup R1b1a1a2a2-Z2103, in line with their almost direct genetic continuity with Afanasievo and with the two other reported samples to date (one C, one R1b)."
https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/yamnaya-like-chemurchek-links-afanasievo-with-iron-age-tocharians/
 
Last edited:
Where did the R-M269 founder live?

[ "
Yet, the second scenario must also explain why the Y-chromosome gene pools of Anatolia and of the steppe were disjoint, for it is not only in Anatolia that steppe-derived Y-chromosomes are rare, but also on the steppe that Near Eastern-derived ones are also rare, with virtually all (27/29) of Yamnaya cluster males from Russia belonging to haplogroup R-M269 and not a single instance of haplogroups prevalent in the Near East such as J.
A possibility that may explain this discrepancy is that Yamnaya cluster males represent a patrilineal elite that was afforded Kurgan burial, and dominated by the R-M269→R-L23→R- Z2103→R-M12149 lineage of its founder. Closely related lineages (such as the above-discussed R-L23→R-L51 in mainland Europe and R-M269→R-PF7562 in the Caucasus/southeastern Europe) participated in the spread of the languages spoken in this population until their ultimate demise on the steppe and replacement by competing patriarchal groups such as the R-M417→R- Z645→R-Z93 descendants.
Where did the R-M269 founder live? The early presence of this lineage in steppe samples and its association with steppe ancestry in many of its descendants may suggest that the R-M269 founder belonged to a population with EHG ancestry. However, the complete lack of association of R-haplogroup descendants and EHG ancestry in either Armenia or Iran is consistent with either a massive dilution of EHG ancestry in these populations resulting in the dissociation of Y- chromosome lineages from autosomal ancestry over time, or with a scenario in which R-M269 was not associated with substantial EHG ancestry to begin with.
At present, we have no archaeogenetic information on where the R-M269 population originated. The TMRCA of R-M269 descendants is 6,400 ybp and of the immediately upstream node R-P297 a much earlier 13,300 ybp. R-P297(xM269) chromosomes are found in hunter- gatherers from the Baltic(3, 458) as well as in a hunter-gatherer from the Samara region of Russia.(8, 9) This would suggest an EHG-associated origin of this lineage, but the “long branch” of R-M269 reduces greatly any confidence in the proximity of the earliest R-M269 bearers to these eastern European relatives. Yet, the data are equally consistent with a scenario in which the R-M269 founder did not have EHG. It is a challenge for future archaeogenetic research pinpoint the origin of the R-M269 lineage" ]

We have great info, most of Urartian samples are R1b, it seems ancient Urartians, a non-Indo-European people, had about 60% CHG, 12% Levant and 22% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N.


Modern distribution of haplogroup R1b-M73.

Modern distribution of haplogroup R1b-L23 (xL51), i.e R1b-Z2103.

Distribution of haplogroup R1b-ht35 (Z2103) in Europe
Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png
 
Last edited:
What is a difference between EHG and WSHG, even if WSHG has a combination of 30 EHG /50 ANE/ 20 EAST ASIAN?

caucasus-cline-narasimhan.jpg



damgaard-south-asia.jpg

41586_2023_5726_Fig7_ESM.jpg

the oldest individual revealing an indistinguishable genetic profile from the yuzhniy oleniy ostrov group is the 11 ka sidelkino individual from samara in western russia42. for consistency with the previously discussed nomenclature, we rename the EHG ancestry as the sidelkino cluster (hereafter, sidelkino cluster or ancestry).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0
 

Are they relatives? Both of them (pazyryk) probably have ANE admixture. We can easily see this kind of combination in siberia.:

And 2013 research said about Altai people:

Interestingly, in western Truvinian sample, the frequency of haplogroup R1a1a was considerably
lower than in the central sample. Based on the closeness of the Altai, which is populated by the representatives of a more Caucasoid SouthSiberian racial
type, it would be reasonable to expect the west–east decrease of the R1a1a frequency on the territory of Tuva. However, this was not observed, and the change of the haplogroup frequency was rather the opposite, as the eastern samples demonstrated maximum frequency of this haplogroup. At the first glance, the result obtained is paradoxical. Specifically, in terms of anthropology, the most Caucasoid population of the western parts of Tuva displays the minimum of haplogroup R1a1a, while in the most Mongoloid population of Todja, the maximum of this haplogroup is observed


http://medgenetics.ru/UserFile/File/...244-Y-Tuva.pdf


images

Pazyryk_presentation_scene.jpg
 

41586_2023_5726_Fig7_ESM.jpg

["the oldest individual revealing an indistinguishable genetic profile from the yuzhniy oleniy ostrov group is the 11 ka sidelkino individual from samara in western russia42. for consistency with the previously discussed nomenclature, we rename the EHG ancestry as the sidelkino cluster (hereafter, sidelkino cluster or ancestry)."]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0

According to AG:

UOO004; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1b-P297 (xM269) - very low coverage

UOO012; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a2-YP4141>pre-YP5018 - 1 derived: YP5056+ T>C (3C) and 8 ancestral SNPs

UOO033; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a2-L54>M1107>M930>pre-L804 - 12 derived and 14 ancestral SNPs

UOO035; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096* (xM25,F746) - very low coverage

"Interesting that a pre Q-L804 sample was found among Karelian hunter-gatherers. This subclade is very closely related to the subclades of Q present in Indigenous Americans."

UOO051; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a1-pre-M459 - very low coverage

UOO052; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

UOO053; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

UOO059; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; (pre-)J1-M267 (xZ2215,FT265222,F2306,Y158859,ZS50) - very low coverage

"Russia_Afanasievo I3950, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2879-2632 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2a1a-a*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Bohemia_CordedWare_Early DRO001, Droužkovice_20B-2, Bohemia, Czech Republic, 2872-2633 calBCE, mtDNA: H2b, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, PapacSciAdv2021

Russia_Afanasievo I3949, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2844-2496 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Russia_Afanasievo I6714, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2618-2468 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Q1b-FT380500 formed from 12900<->9900 BCE (TMRCA 2700<->2600 BCE), so TTK and the PIEs share a common ANE ancestor who lived around 15400<->11100 BCE (TMRCA of Q-Y6826), assuming TTK is Q1b-pre-Y6798. Regardless, the Q1b-Y6802 result signifies that TTK and the PIEs derive from the same Central-North Asian ANE population."
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ter-gatherers&

Yamna (Z2103) has an admixture of EHG above and CHG, hence, they seems to have Hg Q culture:


- Like other steppe people yamna people had a sky god:

Yamna 11 in the wagon ( Hg Q person at steppe maykop was buried in the oldest wagon) :
15-722580fde7.jpg



Moreover see Z2103 cultures(聞一知十). Of course it is difficulty to find their origins under the situation that scholars have not found found even the origin of cimmerian:

- yamna
Yamna_culture_tomb.jpg


- yamna twin, american indian buried in mound:

https://www.ncpedia.org/media/museum-town-creek-state-0


- catacomb culture shaft and side chamber grave:
1-s2.0-S2352409X21001061-gr2.jpg


- ancient mexican tombs:
Depiction-of-the-range-of-shaft-tomb-forms-found-within-the-Atemajac-valley-Modified.png


vs

the spread of Indo-European languages (Max Planck Institute):
indo-european_kqwc.jpg


 
Last edited:

41586_2023_5726_Fig7_ESM.jpg

the oldest individual revealing an indistinguishable genetic profile from the yuzhniy oleniy ostrov group is the 11 ka sidelkino individual from samara in western russia42. for consistency with the previously discussed nomenclature, we rename the EHG ancestry as the sidelkino cluster (hereafter, sidelkino cluster or ancestry).


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0



U2e-U4-U5region.png



["Ust-Tartas (4000-3000 B.C.)
several Ust-Tartas burial grounds with more than 150 graves have been excavated, some of of which revealed the presence of bronze adornments.
The inhabitants of the earliest grave-containing Baraba prehistoric culture appeared to be Caucasoid-Mongoloid hybrids based on anthropological data whose distribution spanned the swathe of forest from Karelia and the Baltic through to the Ural region. Numerous Russian sources have previously described this concept as the Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation (e.g. Bunak V.V.). Additionally, a comparison with the nearby Comb-pit Ware culture revealed enough anthropological similarities to suggest the individuals of Ust-Tartas were likely to be autochthonous and not recent migrants.raves have been excavated, some of of which revealed the presence of bronze adornments"]

Molodin VI, Pilipenko AS, Romaschenko AG, Zhuravlev AA, Trapezov RO. Human migrations in the southern region of the West Siberian Plain during the Bronze Age: Archaeological, palaeogenetic and anthropological data. 2012.

The scandinavia and altai had a cultural connection since mesolithic age:
3025947-inline-petroglyph-map-990-new.jpg
 

SHG all have I. However,

According to Mathieson, et al. (2015), 50% of Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers from
Motala carried the derived variant of EDAR-V370A. This variant is typical of modern East Asian populations, and is known to affect dental morphology[14] and hair texture, and also chin protrusion and ear morphology,[15] as well as other facial features.[16] The authors did not detect East Asian ancestry in the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, and speculated that this gene might not have originated in East Asia, as is commonly believed.[17]


Population-history-inferences-a-Admixture-graph-relating-selected-high-coverage.png
50,000 SNPs). We observe an affinity to Near Easterners beginning with the Villabruna Cluster, and another to east Asians that affects a subset of the Villabruna Cluster." itemprop="contentUrl" class="figure-details-image__main-image" style="vertical-align: middle; border: 0px; width: 459.6px;">

" We observe an affinity to Near Easterners beginning with the Villabruna Cluster, and another to east Asians that affects a subset of the Villabruna Cluster."



The SHGs were found to have a genetic adaptation to high latitude environments, including high frequencies of low pigmentation variants and genes designed for adaptation to the cold and physical performance. SHGs displayed a high frequency of the depigmentation alleles SLC45A2 and
SLC24A5, and the OCA/Herc2, which affects eye pigmentation. These genes were much less common among WHGs and EHGs. A surprising continuity was displayed between SHGs and modern populations of Northern Europe in certain respects. Most notably, the presence of the protein TMEM131 among SHGs and modern Northern Europeans was detected. This protein may be involved in long-term adaptation to the cold.[4]






 

This thread has been viewed 14218 times.

Back
Top