Genome of an Iron age Briton

Fire Haired14

Fire Haired14

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The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.
 
[TABLE="width: 1765"]
[TR]
[TD]Eurogenes K15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Iron Age Briton [/TD]
[TD]English from Cornwall[/TD]
[TD]English from Kent[/TD]
[TD]Me[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Loschbour[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Motala[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Stuttgart[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]MA1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_Sea 43.19[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea 35.22[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea 35.52[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]38.59%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]34.51%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]39.26%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]4.33%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]15.91%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic 28.88[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic 28.94[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic 29.86[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]28.14%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]23.86%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]6.78%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]16.08%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baltic 6.46[/TD]
[TD]Baltic 9.69[/TD]
[TD]Baltic 9.89[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]8.92%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]33.51%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]28.91%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]6.54%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 11.98[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 8.02[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 8.36[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]10.73%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]7.33%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]25.05%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]38.02%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Med 6.71[/TD]
[TD]West_Med 11.16[/TD]
[TD]West_Med 8.77[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]9.34%[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]47.18%[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Asian 1.74[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian 3.55[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian 3.35[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0.70%[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Med 0.01[/TD]
[TD]East_Med 1.82[/TD]
[TD]East_Med 2.5[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]0.70%[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]27.41%[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Red_Sea 1.01[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea 0.59[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea 0.33[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]1.21%[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]5.00%[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Asian 0[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian 0.54[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian 0.58[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0.17%[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]20.31%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0.05[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian 0[/TD]
[TD]Siberian 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Siberian 0.05[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Amerindian 0[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian 0.07[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian 0.35[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]1.10%[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]18.62%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oceanian 0[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian 0.19[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian 0.31[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]0.80%[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]0.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northeast_African 0[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African 0.11[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African 0.06[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]0.40%[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]0.47%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Interestingly his Eastern Euro is higher than Stuttgart and even Loshbour. Meaning that his East Euro cannot be from Neolithic farmers or local Hunter Gatherers. Most likely it is signature of Indo Europeans who came from East in Bronze Age and some more in Iron Age. His West Asian and East Med is very low too, so perhaps Celts or proto Celts came from East Europe anyway? To bad Caucasian admixture is not shown here.
Having said that we don't Neolithic farmer sequenced from England yet for proper comparison.
 
LeBrok said:
Interestingly his Eastern Euro is higher than Stuttgart and even Loshbour. Meaning that his East Euro cannot be from Neolithic farmers or local Hunter Gatherers. Most likely it is signature of Indo Europeans who came from East in Bronze Age and some more in Iron Age. His West Asian and East Med is very low too, so perhaps Celts or proto Celts came from East Europe anyway? To bad Caucasian admixture is not shown here.
Having said that we don't Neolithic farmer sequenced from England yet for proper comparison.
Click to expand...

You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI
 
motzart said:
[TABLE="width: 1765"]
[TR]
[TD]Eurogenes K15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Iron Age Briton[/TD]
[TD]English from Cornwall[/TD]
[TD]English from Kent[/TD]
[TD]Me[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Loschbour[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Motala[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Stuttgart[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]MA1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_Sea 43.19[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea 35.22[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea 35.52[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]38.59%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]34.51%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]39.26%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]4.33%[/TD]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]15.91%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic 28.88[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic 28.94[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic 29.86[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]28.14%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]23.86%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]6.78%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]16.08%[/TD]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baltic 6.46[/TD]
[TD]Baltic 9.69[/TD]
[TD]Baltic 9.89[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]8.92%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]33.51%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]28.91%[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]6.54%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 11.98[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 8.02[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro 8.36[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]10.73%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]7.33%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]25.05%[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]38.02%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Med 6.71[/TD]
[TD]West_Med 11.16[/TD]
[TD]West_Med 8.77[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]9.34%[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]47.18%[/TD]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Asian 1.74[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian 3.55[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian 3.35[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0.70%[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Med 0.01[/TD]
[TD]East_Med 1.82[/TD]
[TD]East_Med 2.5[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]0.70%[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]27.41%[/TD]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Red_Sea 1.01[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea 0.59[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea 0.33[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]1.21%[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]5.00%[/TD]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Asian 0[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian 0.54[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian 0.58[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0.17%[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]20.31%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0.05[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian 0[/TD]
[TD]Siberian 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Siberian 0.05[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Amerindian 0[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian 0.07[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian 0.35[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]1.10%[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]18.62%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oceanian 0[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian 0.19[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian 0.31[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]0.80%[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]0.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northeast_African 0[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African 0.11[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African 0.06[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]0.40%[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan 0.03[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]0.47%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?
 
Angela said:
I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?
Click to expand...

We don't actually know if this is an Anglo-Saxon or a "Pre" Anglo Saxon, apparently that information will be released tomorrow to add suspense :embarassed:
 
motzart said:
You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that he is pure Indo-European invader. Most of his genetics is local and most of it is Neolithic West Euro and West Hunter Gatherer, however he carries increased amount of East Euro which didn't exist there in Neolithic. Granted it could have come from Scandinavia or with Saxons, otherwise only Indo-Europeans could have brought so much East Euro.
IE invaders came there as minority and could have had originally 50% East Euro, but after mixing with locals the East Euro was diluted to 12%.

What do you propose, from all the admixtures shown, was brought with IE from East to England?

East Euro in Motala can be explain by constant population movement from Eastern Europe hunter gatherer population after Ice Age. Scandinavia is a peninsula, as you know, connected with North East Europe by land bridge. Most likely HG got to Scandinavia through this land bridge from Eastern Europe.
We also can see rather limited connection with Western Europe by Motala's low Atlantic admixture, even when compared to Loshbour.
 
Last edited:
If these samples are from 1800-2500 years ago, they're from before the Normans or Anglo-Saxons and could be either from Roman Britain or from pre-Roman Celtic Britain but, either way, they look like what I would expect typical Celts to look like - a lot of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry and some Eastern Europe (IE). Finds from Norway from the same period would probably look similar not because of early Norse settlement in the area but because of similar ancestry. The Celtic and Viking myths, legends and religious beliefs are fairly similar despite the linguistic differences - a British writer named H. R. Ellis Davidson has written about that.
 
Aberdeen said:
If these samples are from 1800-2500 years ago, they're from before the Normans or Anglo-Saxons and could be either from Roman Britain or from pre-Roman Celtic Britain but, either way, they look like what I would expect typical Celts to look like - a lot of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry and some Eastern Europe (IE). Finds from Norway from the same period would probably look similar not because of early Norse settlement in the area but because of similar ancestry. The Celtic and Viking myths, legends and religious beliefs are fairly similar despite the linguistic differences - a British writer named H. R. Ellis Davidson has written about that.
Click to expand...
Some historians say that Anglo-Frisians were invading and settling England from second century BCE (IIRC) through Roman period. Some excavated villages from this time period carry Frisian cultural artifacts and are located amongst local celtic villages. The Anglo-Saxon invasion was supposedly a culmination of this long going process of germanic tribes settling in England.
 
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".

This sample, at least by the limited evidence of this particular admixture run, seems to be closer to the western Scots, Orkney etc. (areas settled by Norwegians later on in history).

So, wouldn't it be logical to say that either these more northern and eastern "type" people were moving into a Britain populated by more "Cornish" like people earlier than believed, or southern and southwestern British people somehow got more "southern", perhaps more "EEF" genes? If that's what happened, there are only a few options, yes? Perhaps it's down to the Belgae?The Normans and movement from France in general is the only other larger scale migration of which I'm aware after the Saxons? Now, from what little I know, the Normans weren't all Normans, so maybe that's part of the answer.

As I said, it would be interesting to see if the EEF/WHG/ANE percentages of this Iron Age Briton are close to those of modern day people from, say, southern England.

It would also be interesting to see the K=15 results from western Ireland, for example, or northern Wales.

Of course, I don't think the differences are major, and too much can be made of them.

Ed If these migrations were taking place generally from the east from the Bronze Age, different waves might have had a slightly different composition?
 
Angela said:
I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?
Click to expand...

This sample is very northern but not very eastern. It's west European on steroids. Like I said in my original post it scores higher in northwest European-centered components than any modern populations. He scored 40% WHG, 16% ANE,and 44% EEF. He's a pre-Anglo Brit and it should be expected for him to be most similar to Irish.
 
Maybe Cornish have significant Anglo-Saxon admixture like English. Irish and west Scottish score about as high in west European-centered components as this Iron age Brit, maybe because they have more Celtic ancestry from the Isles.
 
LeBrok said:
Some historians say that Anglo-Frisians were invading and settling England from second century BCE (IIRC) through Roman period. Some excavated villages from this time period carry Frisian cultural artifacts and are located amongst local celtic villages. The Anglo-Saxon invasion was supposedly a culmination of this long going process of germanic tribes settling in England.
Click to expand...

There are no historical records of any Germanic invasions prior to 400 AD, although there was trade between Britain and the Germanic tribes, so some peaceful settlement could have occurred, in which case these people could possibly be Germanic, but IMO the main differences between the folk of Denmark, for example, and western England were probably cultural and linguistic rather than genetic, and the cultural differences wouldn't have been as great as some might expect. I imagine that even in pre-Celtic Britain there would have been a more Germanic tilt, culturally and genetically in eastern Britain as compared to western Britain since some of those Celts that the Roman invaders fought were actually Germano-Celtic Belgaic tribes, at least in eastern Britain - Boudiccia was actually Belgaic rather than full Celt, at least according to the records of the time.
 
Angela said:
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".

This sample, at least by the limited evidence of this particular admixture run, seems to be closer to the western Scots, Orkney etc. (areas settled by Norwegians later on in history).

So, wouldn't it be logical to say that either these more northern and eastern "type" people were moving into a Britain populated by more "Cornish" like people earlier than believed, or southern and southwestern British people somehow got more "southern", perhaps more "EEF" genes? If that's what happened, there are only a few options, yes? Perhaps it's down to the Belgae?The Normans and movement from France in general is the only other larger scale migration of which I'm aware after the Saxons? Now, from what little I know, the Normans weren't all Normans, so maybe that's part of the answer.

As I said, it would be interesting to see if the EEF/WHG/ANE percentages of this Iron Age Briton are close to those of modern day people from, say, southern England.

It would also be interesting to see the K=15 results from western Ireland, for example, or northern Wales.

Of course, I don't think the differences are major, and too much can be made of them.

Ed If these migrations were taking place generally from the east from the Bronze Age, different waves might have had a slightly different composition?
Click to expand...

The Normans were a mixture of Scandinavian and French, but as I said before, this was before their time (1066 and all that). It was prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions but, yes, the Belgaic component in the eastern part of "Celtic" Britain would have tilted that population in somewhat of a north Germanic direction as compared to the Cornwall population but the differences wouldn't be great.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
This sample is very northern but not very eastern. It's west European on steroids. Like I said in my original post it scores higher in northwest European-centered components than any modern populations. He scored 40% WHG, 16% ANE,and 44% EEF. He's a pre-Anglo Brit and it should be expected for him to be most similar to Irish.
Click to expand...

As I said, the differences are not extreme. However, these are the Lazaridis et al results for the English versus the Scots:

English
EEF-.495
WHG-.364
ANE-.141

The modern English are six points higher in EEF, and slightly lower in ANE and WHG than this Iron Age Brit

Scots:
EEF .39
WHG: .428
ANE:.182

Modern Scots are lower in EEF, and higher in ANE and WHG.

I will let the Brits figure it out. :smile:
 
Aberdeen said:
There are no historical records of any Germanic invasions prior to 400 AD, although there was trade between Britain and the Germanic tribes, so some peaceful settlement could have occurred, in which case these people could possibly be Germanic,
Click to expand...
True, there were no signs of major invasion, battles, scorges. More like peaceful settlements living together. Similar coexistence of two cultures was noted in Poland when Goths were moving south to Black Sea.

I'm not sure how this is possible that locals can agree for strangers to settle close by. Perhaps in certain time periods population density is not big, strangers come and cut forest for their village and new fields, not taking agrarian land from locals?
 
Angela said:
English
EEF-.495

Scots:
EEF .39

I will let the Brits figure it out. :smile:
Click to expand...
Still substantial difference of over 20% in distance of few hundred kilometers.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
images

​

The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.
Click to expand...

the notes state iron-age britain ..........thats from 800BC to 100AD

Anglo-saxons did not arrive in britain until 450AD

years in question 2500-1800 Yrs ago = 500BC- 200AD

1 - it cannot be angels, saxons , jutes or frisians

2- it can be celtic belgae who arrived in 200BC

3- mtdna marker is noted as origins in scandinavian

most likely the person belongs to an early celtic migration
 
Angela said:
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".
Click to expand...

Is "Southwest English" the same as "Cornish" here? Some Southwest English samples have clustered very differently from the Cornish in other studies; for example, in PotBI, people from Dorset cluster with people from Kent, not with people from Cornwall, who are a unique cluster. I haven't followed Eurogenes closely the past couple of years, but data that was current circa a couple of years ago in K13 (a better alignment than K15 for finding Anglo-Saxon traces IMHO), the Cornish had almost identical profiles as SW Scots, and quite different from Kentish, who were closer to the Dutch.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
images

​

The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.
Click to expand...

Interesting. As advances are being made in ancient DNA studies our knowledge increases.
 
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