Guess the Y-haplogroup(s) of Mesolithic Iberians (Braña 1 & 2)

What Y-DNA haplogroup(s) will be found in the Mesolithic Iberian samples?


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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Loschbour(y dna I2) and La Brana (y dna C?) are both hyper-dolichocephalic with rather small crania and very prominent eye-brow ridges. They don't resemble the ancient hunter-gatherer remains that I've seem labeled as being "Cro-Magnon".

I suppose what I'm asking is if these sequenced samples are from an older or later migration into Europe than that of the "Cro-Magnon" people (if that term is even used any longer)?

Also, given that La Brana is yDNA C, it will be interesting to see if autosomally he is closer to WHG or ANE in Lazaridis et al terms.
I know Moesan wrote one post about differences between these more "gracial" hunter-gatherers (possibly Cro-Magnons), and the "robust" type. I've asked him for more information on subject but he must have missed my post.
If the gracial one is more ancient in Europe (supposedly Cro Magnon), and was replaced by the brut, the question is, when this brut showed up and where it came from?
 
In that case I stand corrected. I thought C-V20 was in the Americas. I must admit I'm no expert in hg. C either-- I need to study some more.

Why not start by Eupedia's main page on European haplogroups. Haplogroup C6 (V20) has been listed as a Paleolithic/Mesolithic lineage (alongside F and I) for a while now. Interesting to know it was found in Iberia just before the Neolithic.

C-V20 is found in less than 0.1% of Europeans today. It's interesting that I lineages resisted so much better the Neolithic and Bronze Age invasions. Of course, it is possible that C-V20 was already a tiny minority lineage during the Mesolithic, and that replacement occured progressively over tens of thousands of years preceding the Neolithic. I had suggested exactly four months ago a Cro-Magnon chronology in which C6 was the first to arrived in Europe (during the Aurignacian) and interbreed with Neanderthals, and that haplogroups F and I represented two later migrations (Gravettian and Solutrean respectively), who each, turn by turn, progressively replaced older lineages. I should also add to that E-V13 and J2b probably represented a Mesolithic migration from the Near East to the southern Balkans (alongside J1c, J2b1 and some T2 mtDNA lineages). The actual Neolithic migrations from the Near East would have been E-M123, J1 and T (+ R1b-V88 but mostly to North Africa, although a few lineages could have ended up in Europe too).
 
I know Moesan wrote one post about differences between these more "gracial" hunter-gatherers (possibly Cro-Magnons), and the "robust" type. I've asked him for more information on subject but he must have missed my post.
If the gracial one is more ancient in Europe (supposedly Cro Magnon), and was replaced by the brut, the question is, when this brut showed up and where it came from?

AFAIK the "Cro-magnid" term denotes only the shape of the old Cro-Magnon skull which is the only Cro-Magnid skull find from europe. It is dolichocephal, yet very broad faced. It is > 30000 years old. I always found it risky to say "Cro-Magnons" when actually referring to late mesolithic europeans, because it is > 20000 years later. The only other Cro-Magnid skulls ever found (AFAIK!) are mesolithic from North-West Africa (Mechta, Afalou), but today Berbers who partially are classified as Cro-Magnoid have very minimal WHG admixture (almost nonexistent, source: few individuals posted their admixture percentages in some forums right after the Lazaridis et al paper). The only other very ancient skull class from europe I'm aware of is Brünn (today Czech republic) and it is probably even older than Cro-Magnon.
I believe the simplification by saying "Cro-Magnon" referring to all pre-neolithic europeans comes from the very different Combe-Capelle find, which was believed to be of the same age as the old Cro-magnon and therefore it was assumed to be strongly related. But recent re-evaluation (2011) of the age of Combe-Capelle revealed different, surprisingly young age of 9000 years, suggesting a much stronger separation from the old Cro-Magnon folks. In my eyes Combe-Capelle is a completely different skull type than Cro-Magnon, such that the recent re-datation makes even more sense.
I think it would be still ok to call Brünnids and Cro-Magnids both "Cro-Magnons" despite they are different, but Capellid (also very robust, but as Cro-Mag also huge elongated skull size, but very long face too) is known recently to be of a very much later epipaleolithic era and it would be risky to call it "Cro-Magnon".
Moesan is indeed very welcome to comment and correct if necessary.
 
Why not start by Eupedia's main page on European haplogroups. Haplogroup C6 (V20) has been listed as a Paleolithic/Mesolithic lineage (alongside F and I) for a while now. Interesting to know it was found in Iberia just before the Neolithic.

C-V20 is found in less than 0.1% of Europeans today. It's interesting that I lineages resisted so much better the Neolithic and Bronze Age invasions. Of course, it is possible that C-V20 was already a tiny minority lineage during the Mesolithic, and that replacement occured progressively over tens of thousands of years preceding the Neolithic. I had suggested exactly four months ago a Cro-Magnon chronology in which C6 was the first to arrived in Europe (during the Aurignacian) and interbreed with Neanderthals, and that haplogroups F and I represented two later migrations (Gravettian and Solutrean respectively), who each, turn by turn, progressively replaced older lineages. I should also add to that E-V13 and J2b probably represented a Mesolithic migration from the Near East to the southern Balkans (alongside J1c, J2b1 and some T2 mtDNA lineages). The actual Neolithic migrations from the Near East would have been E-M123, J1 and T (+ R1b-V88 but mostly to North Africa, although a few lineages could have ended up in Europe too).

Do you have an age estimate for CTS11043 ?
If it is not to old CTS11043 could have been involved in Andronovo culture :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one haplogroup C-M130 (xC3)

The one was tested C+ and C3- but not for any other subclades

As for F in present Europe it is F3, and I think it is neolithic and came along with G2a.
F and G have been found together in neolithic Europe.
 
Why not start by Eupedia's main page on European haplogroups. Haplogroup C6 (V20) has been listed as a Paleolithic/Mesolithic lineage (alongside F and I) for a while now. Interesting to know it was found in Iberia just before the Neolithic.

C-V20 is found in less than 0.1% of Europeans today. It's interesting that I lineages resisted so much better the Neolithic and Bronze Age invasions. Of course, it is possible that C-V20 was already a tiny minority lineage during the Mesolithic, and that replacement occured progressively over tens of thousands of years preceding the Neolithic. I had suggested exactly four months ago a Cro-Magnon chronology in which C6 was the first to arrived in Europe (during the Aurignacian) and interbreed with Neanderthals, and that haplogroups F and I represented two later migrations (Gravettian and Solutrean respectively), who each, turn by turn, progressively replaced older lineages. I should also add to that E-V13 and J2b probably represented a Mesolithic migration from the Near East to the southern Balkans (alongside J1c, J2b1 and some T2 mtDNA lineages). The actual Neolithic migrations from the Near East would have been E-M123, J1 and T (+ R1b-V88 but mostly to North Africa, although a few lineages could have ended up in Europe too).

I see now, it is allready confirmed that the Iberian hunter/gatherer was C6.
In that case he probably came with Aurignacians as you suggest, or maybe even earlier, with Bohunicians.
What I don't understand, they all came in through the Balkans, while CTS11043 was supposed to split in Siberia into C1 (Japan) and C6 (Europe)
Things are surely becoming more complicated again.
 
I see now, it is allready confirmed that the Iberian hunter/gatherer was C6.
In that case he probably came with Aurignacians as you suggest, or maybe even earlier, with Bohunicians.
What I don't understand, they all came in through the Balkans, while CTS11043 was supposed to split in Siberia into C1 (Japan) and C6 (Europe)
Things are surely becoming more complicated again.

these are C6 markers
F3393+, CTS11043+, CTS11798+, F993+, P53+, V20+, V222+

how do you know CTS11043+ split in Siberia when it was added/announce only this week?

[h=3]C-CTS11043[/h] [FONT=georgia, serif][/FONT][FONT=georgia, serif]Combining information from many sources, CTS11043 was added to the C tree in Jan 2014.[/FONT][FONT=georgia, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, serif]CTS11043 is a subgroup of F3393 and has two subgroups, P122 and V20. CTS11043 has one sister[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, serif]subgroup, F1370.
[/FONT]
 
Has La Brana 2 also been sequenced or are there plans for that? It would be quite interesting to compare the Y-DNA haplogroup to this find.


EDIT: I saw dienekes mixed La Brana 1 and 2. So there must be info.
 
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I think I'd go with F( or I), but I don't think predicting a G2a result is out of bounds...as someone posted on another forum, there's a very old, 12,000 year old cluster of G2a in northwestern Italy...much older than the others.

This is the Globe 13 breakdown for La Brana 1...25% Mediterranean.
View attachment 6136

The breakdown also shows a few percent "Paleo-African". Is that San/Bushmen/Capoid? Also it would be quite interesting to see if North-European is more Northwest of Northeast. Especially since the Swedes are considered to be far more EEF than Baltics and North-Scandinavians.
 
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AFAIK the "Cro-magnid" term denotes only the shape of the old Cro-Magnon skull which is the only Cro-Magnid skull find from europe. It is dolichocephal, yet very broad faced. It is > 30000 years old. I always found it risky to say "Cro-Magnons" when actually referring to late mesolithic europeans, because it is > 20000 years later. The only other Cro-Magnid skulls ever found (AFAIK!) are mesolithic from North-West Africa (Mechta, Afalou), but today Berbers who partially are classified as Cro-Magnoid have very minimal WHG admixture (almost nonexistent, source: few individuals posted their admixture percentages in some forums right after the Lazaridis et al paper). The only other very ancient skull class from europe I'm aware of is Brünn (today Czech republic) and it is probably even older than Cro-Magnon.
I believe the simplification by saying "Cro-Magnon" referring to all pre-neolithic europeans comes from the very different Combe-Capelle find, which was believed to be of the same age as the old Cro-magnon and therefore it was assumed to be strongly related. But recent re-evaluation (2011) of the age of Combe-Capelle revealed different, surprisingly young age of 9000 years, suggesting a much stronger separation from the old Cro-Magnon folks. In my eyes Combe-Capelle is a completely different skull type than Cro-Magnon, such that the recent re-datation makes even more sense.
I think it would be still ok to call Brünnids and Cro-Magnids both "Cro-Magnons" despite they are different, but Capellid (also very robust, but as Cro-Mag also huge elongated skull size, but very long face too) is known recently to be of a very much later epipaleolithic era and it would be risky to call it "Cro-Magnon".
Moesan is indeed very welcome to comment and correct if necessary.

Such excellent points. I'm glad you brought them up here...

I postulate that we are missing at least two very important clues in the settlement of the European continent. The enormous variation we see historically in European skull size and shape lends credibility to a theory I've heard mentioned (but have ignored pretty much until now). It sounds nuts, but when you pair this idea with these incredible cranial differences, the temperature core readings found in the poles, the large scale elimination of animal species (comparatively anyway), and a few other interesting tid-bits... I think we owe our current genetic jumble to the skies above!

And no I don't mean aliens.

What if we got thumped by a decent sized meteor or small comet about 13,000 years ago? It's starting to look like this was the case...
 
If you read the paper carefully, it makes very interesting reading. For example, the identification of the La Brana remains as having Y haplotype C6 specifically is not completely certain. To quote:

"The mean coverage obtained for the Y chromosome (1.4x) prevented us from recovering phylogenetically relevant SNPs at high coverage. However, using unfiltered data, we were able to narrow down the paternal lineage affiliation of La Braña 1 individual (Table S9). The presence of the derived allele in many different mutations defining haplogroups A1, A1b, BT, CT and CF suggests La Braña 1 sample belongs to either haplogroup C or F. When mutations defining those haplogroups were checked, only ancestral alleles were found in the haplogroup F-defining mutations, whereas seven C-defining mutations (M130, M216, P255, P260, V183, V199 and V232) showed only derived alleles. Thus, La Braña 1 most likely belonged to haplogroup C. The actual distribution of haplogroup C is thought to be a consequence of a single out of Africa migration through Southern Asia, followed by a northward migration that eventually reached Siberia and the Americas. The fact that we found ancestral alleles in mutations defining C1, C2, C3 and C4 (Table S9), together with their actual phylogeographic distribution restricted to Asia, Oceania and the Americas suggests that our individual does not belong to any of these branches. Rather, a new branch within haplogroup C (C6, originally named C7) has recently been identified in several men from Southern Europe, suggesting this could be an ancient European clade. Importantly, mutation V20 showed one read with the derived allele (A), which points to C6 as the most probable sub-clade for La Braña 1 sample. It could also be possible that this G to A mutation is a result of DNA damage. Other less likely haplogroup affiliations are C* and C5 (no read covered SNP M356), both found mainly in present- day India. Besides the V20 mutation, four other positions could have potentially been assigned wrongly due to the presence of DNA damage. However, their allele state is phylogenetically coherent with the rest of the SNPs studied. The precise affiliation of La Braña 1 in the Y-chromosome phylogeny could be better determined in the future with more data and increased genomic coverage."

It also seems that the idea that the La Brana person had dark skin and blue eyes is a probability rather than a certainty.

"Furthermore, using the alleles present in La Braña 1 for the six most informative SNPs for eye color prediction69 and for other SNPs associated to hair color, the HIrisPlex model was applied (Table S22). We obtained a probability of 0.780 and 0.202 for having black and brown hair respectively. Regarding the eye color prediction, no data could be recovered for SNP rs12896399. Thus, accounting for the three possible genotypes in this SNP, we obtained a probability range of 0.706-0.458, 0.214-0.117 and 0.328-0.177 for blue, intermediate and brown color respectively. If it can be confirmed that La Braña 1 had blue eyes with the genotyping of the SNP rs12896399, it would be so far the oldest known individual carrying this trait. The combination of seven SNPs has also been shown to be useful in the prediction of “not-dark” and “not white” skin color in a global human sample. However, some of these SNPs are not variable between Asians and Europeans and thus, its usefulness for skin color prediction in an ancient, European-specific genetic background is debatable. Moreover, the model, developed for forensics purposes, is based on the number of these SNPs present in a particular individual. La Braña 1 has the non-dark allele in rs6119471 (two copies), rs12913832 (two copies) and rs12203592 (one copy). As a conclusion, it is very difficult to ascertain the precise skin pigmentation phenotype of La Braña 1 individual from the comparison with modern human populations because the two critical pigmentation SNPs (at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 genes) are essentially fixed in extant Europeans. Although some neighbouring populations such as Middle Easterns or North Africans can carry these ancestral alleles, their general genetic background is still quite different from that of modern Europeans and especially from Northern Europeans, to which La Braña 1 displays clear affinities. It is likely that La Braña 1 represents a unique phenotype that is no longer present in modern Europeans."

Of course, these "maybe" statements are to some extent just typical of scientists, who will mention even the slightest doubts about their results. But they didn't seem to have any doubts about the relationship between the La Brana man and Mal'ta Boy.

"Table S10 presents result for this analysis, indicating that the Mal’ta individual is closer to the La Braña 1 individual than it is to any European population, with the exception of Orcadian and Russian populations. We also calculated D statistics using all the East Asian population from the HGDP, and found that the Mal’ta individual is significantly closer to the La Braña 1 individual than it is to the East Asians (Table S11). "

So Mal'ta Boy, despite being R*, is related to someone who's C, and possibly C6. Okay, maybe not related, but genetically closer to than most modern European populations.
 
it is not easy to give an opinion, because can be groups disappeared without a trace or can be is not still bare.
But for the m?solithique I see only I2, I2a, I2b (Aquitaine) and also I *, I1 can be of possible in the Iberian Peninsula, G2a will arrive only much more late and E1b could be as well residual Punic troops of Roman occupation and that another presence of him before is anecdotal. When to R1a it seems to me difficult see impossible and for R1b it will be better to forget.
 
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I'm kind of in a hurry tonight so I'm going off of memory, but weren't several men assigned to G2a in the Northwest of Italy 12,000 years ago? This pre-dates La Brana by about 5,000 years so I don't think it's a stretch to say G2a could have been in Iberia long ago.

Also the males in Sweden were assigned to I2 and I* (possibly), but isn't it true that some of the I* could be proto I1 or even I1 proper? Has anyone else heard this before? (That the readings weren't defined enough to determine or assign exact clade.)

My point here is that Iberian pennisula might have been a "soup" of y-DNA even during La Brana, that it can be easy to forget some of these other findings and develop tunnel vision.

That being said... overall very cool that C6 was in Europe this far back and that blue eyes also look like they've been tied to the Continent for so long.
 
If you read the paper carefully, it makes very interesting reading. For example, the identification of the La Brana remains as having Y haplotype C6 specifically is not completely certain. To quote:

"The mean coverage obtained for the Y chromosome (1.4x) prevented us from recovering phylogenetically relevant SNPs at high coverage. However, using unfiltered data, we were able to narrow down the paternal lineage affiliation of La Braña 1 individual (Table S9). The presence of the derived allele in many different mutations defining haplogroups A1, A1b, BT, CT and CF suggests La Braña 1 sample belongs to either haplogroup C or F. When mutations defining those haplogroups were checked, only ancestral alleles were found in the haplogroup F-defining mutations, whereas seven C-defining mutations (M130, M216, P255, P260, V183, V199 and V232) showed only derived alleles. Thus, La Braña 1 most likely belonged to haplogroup C. The actual distribution of haplogroup C is thought to be a consequence of a single out of Africa migration through Southern Asia, followed by a northward migration that eventually reached Siberia and the Americas. The fact that we found ancestral alleles in mutations defining C1, C2, C3 and C4 (Table S9), together with their actual phylogeographic distribution restricted to Asia, Oceania and the Americas suggests that our individual does not belong to any of these branches. Rather, a new branch within haplogroup C (C6, originally named C7) has recently been identified in several men from Southern Europe, suggesting this could be an ancient European clade. Importantly, mutation V20 showed one read with the derived allele (A), which points to C6 as the most probable sub-clade for La Braña 1 sample. It could also be possible that this G to A mutation is a result of DNA damage. Other less likely haplogroup affiliations are C* and C5 (no read covered SNP M356), both found mainly in present- day India. Besides the V20 mutation, four other positions could have potentially been assigned wrongly due to the presence of DNA damage. However, their allele state is phylogenetically coherent with the rest of the SNPs studied. The precise affiliation of La Braña 1 in the Y-chromosome phylogeny could be better determined in the future with more data and increased genomic coverage."

It also seems that the idea that the La Brana person had dark skin and blue eyes is a probability rather than a certainty.

"Furthermore, using the alleles present in La Braña 1 for the six most informative SNPs for eye color prediction69 and for other SNPs associated to hair color, the HIrisPlex model was applied (Table S22). We obtained a probability of 0.780 and 0.202 for having black and brown hair respectively. Regarding the eye color prediction, no data could be recovered for SNP rs12896399. Thus, accounting for the three possible genotypes in this SNP, we obtained a probability range of 0.706-0.458, 0.214-0.117 and 0.328-0.177 for blue, intermediate and brown color respectively. If it can be confirmed that La Braña 1 had blue eyes with the genotyping of the SNP rs12896399, it would be so far the oldest known individual carrying this trait. The combination of seven SNPs has also been shown to be useful in the prediction of “not-dark” and “not white” skin color in a global human sample. However, some of these SNPs are not variable between Asians and Europeans and thus, its usefulness for skin color prediction in an ancient, European-specific genetic background is debatable. Moreover, the model, developed for forensics purposes, is based on the number of these SNPs present in a particular individual. La Braña 1 has the non-dark allele in rs6119471 (two copies), rs12913832 (two copies) and rs12203592 (one copy). As a conclusion, it is very difficult to ascertain the precise skin pigmentation phenotype of La Braña 1 individual from the comparison with modern human populations because the two critical pigmentation SNPs (at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 genes) are essentially fixed in extant Europeans. Although some neighbouring populations such as Middle Easterns or North Africans can carry these ancestral alleles, their general genetic background is still quite different from that of modern Europeans and especially from Northern Europeans, to which La Braña 1 displays clear affinities. It is likely that La Braña 1 represents a unique phenotype that is no longer present in modern Europeans."

Of course, these "maybe" statements are to some extent just typical of scientists, who will mention even the slightest doubts about their results. But they didn't seem to have any doubts about the relationship between the La Brana man and Mal'ta Boy.

"Table S10 presents result for this analysis, indicating that the Mal’ta individual is closer to the La Braña 1 individual than it is to any European population, with the exception of Orcadian and Russian populations. We also calculated D statistics using all the East Asian population from the HGDP, and found that the Mal’ta individual is significantly closer to the La Braña 1 individual than it is to the East Asians (Table S11). "

So Mal'ta Boy, despite being R*, is related to someone who's C, and possibly C6. Okay, maybe not related, but genetically closer to than most modern European populations.


But wasn't AG2 the marker Q1a1 with subclade F1215 ?
 
If you read the paper carefully, it makes very interesting reading. For example, the identification of the La Brana remains as having Y haplotype C6 specifically is not completely certain.

From what I can tell, the important stuff to know is:

  • La Brana 1 tested positive for C-V20.
  • It is possible that C-V20 is a false reading and that it is actually C* or even C5.
  • The main reason to be suspicious of the C-V20 result is that 3 SNPs that are phyloequivalent to V20 in modern samples are negative in La Brana 1.
  • A more likely reason for the other SNPs being negative than C-V20 being false is that La Brana 1 is on a different branch of C-V20 than modern C-V20, sort of like Loschbour's relationship to modern I2a-Din.
 
Also the males in Sweden were assigned to I2 and I* (possibly), but isn't it true that some of the I* could be proto I1 or even I1 proper? Has anyone else heard this before? (That the readings weren't defined enough to determine or assign exact clade.)

Motala2 and Motala9 are both Haplogroup I xI1, meaning that both were positive for Haplogroup I and negative for a particular I1 SNP. Either could be proto-I1, but more likely is that both are I2, very possibly I2-L178 like Loschbour and Motala12.
 
From what I can tell, the important stuff to know is:

  • La Brana 1 tested positive for C-V20.
  • It is possible that C-V20 is a false reading and that it is actually C* or even C5.
  • The main reason to be suspicious of the C-V20 result is that 3 SNPs that are phyloequivalent to V20 in modern samples are negative in La Brana 1.
  • A more likely reason for the other SNPs being negative than C-V20 being false is that La Brana 1 is on a different branch of C-V20 than modern C-V20, sort of like Loschbour's relationship to modern I2a-Din.


I wonder what the conclusion would have been if the clade C-V20 wasn't recently discovered.
Yet I agree, the most likely is that this man was related to C-V20 without actually being C-V20.
 
I think while the Y-DNA haplogroup is a surprise it is not the most interesting about La Brana 2. I think the existence of genes that are associated with pathogen resistance is the most interesting.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/01/brown-skinned-blue-eyed-y-haplogroup-c.html

All over the world the first encounter between hunter-gatherers and agricultural societies results in mass death of the former due to diseases the latter are more or less resistant to. It went that way with the Indians, who were far, far more susceptible to smallpox than the westerners. The tribes from the the Andaman islands experienced it. There are numerous accounts.

Jared Diamond builds a large part of his thesis in his very readable book "Guns, Germs and Steel" on the idea that it is almost a law of nature.

We have been seeing a number of accounts of hunter-gatherers living alongside farmers for thousands of years. We now have an idea why they did not perish from these diseases.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/10/ancient-central-european-mtdna-across.html
 
We have been seeing a number of accounts of hunter-gatherers living alongside farmers for thousands of years. We now have an idea why they did not perish from these diseases.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/10/ancient-central-european-mtdna-across.html

The building immunity to pathogens is rather a quick process based on natural selection. It goes quickly through the populations like wildfire. We are talking about few years, maybe couple of decades) after time frame, like black death in Europe, or WWI spanish flu. In most cases population rebuilds numbers in few generations. In case of America by 1600 hundreds life was back to normal, well except colonialists being there. Now it's been 500 years since first contact, and immunity seems to be the same across the board.

When we extrapolate it on Europe, farmers meeting hunters, the dying off event could have happened at first encroachment of farmers 8,000 BC and was done couple of hundreds years later. We won't find it later at 6,000 BC the time if Stuttgart or Brania. Most likely it didn't happen at all or much sooner, because of constant contact of both sides through dry Bosphorus bridge.
 

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