Haplogroup I and Germanic people

Yorkie said:
Sorry but I don't follow your point here, how yes no. I am defining the Germanic peoples as a mixture of Indo-European [R1a1, R1b] and 'native' European [I1, I2b1, and I2a2b] haplogroups.

I have read Klyosov [a little bit, most is in Russian] and I am not disputing the dating of R1a1 as R1a1 is not my area. However, I do believe that there is overwhelming evidence that R1a1 was brought to northern Europe by the Kurgan 'Battle Axe' culture.
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oops, sorry...
I wanted to quote LeBrok
R1a moved into center of europe about 5 000 years ago with Battle Axe Culture
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this seems to be in contradiction with Klyosov's observation about R1a... as according to Klyosov R1a was already present in Balkan, which is close to center of Europe and as Balkan was, as far as I think, not the source of Battle Axe culture...

what might have happened is that spread from Balkan went first to east, and than returned to Europe as Battle Axe culture...
 
That's ok. Incidentally, I respect Klyosov's views but I think the consensus view of 5,000 years ago is more likely.
 
Klyosov could be right, but we need to find dna evidence from central and south Europe before 5000 years ago, to be sure. The oldest R1a so far in central Europe was found in Saxony and dated as 4600 years old. That's what we are certain so far. The rest are hypothesis.
 
Just a thought to make sure that all of us on on the same sheet of music-

Those of us that mention the Battle Axe Culture as a carrier of R1a are probably referring to that of the Volga Battle Axe culture specifically.

The Steppe Battle Axe culture, which may be what others are thinking about when they see "Battle Axe culture", should be more associated with the Proto Thraco-Cimmerians, who dominated the steppe at that time.

To the East of both were the proto Iranians, who would eventually would provide the group that was to push the Cimmerians completely off the steppe, the Scythians.

It came to me that someone may dispute the position that a group may have carried R1a but that he may have a different particular group in mind when he sees the words "Battle Axe Culture".

I think that the Steppe Battle Axe culture also could have carried R1a. I just wanted to clarify this because the topic was about the R1a group that mixed in to become Germans, and that appears to be the Volga group.
 
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I mean the Corded Ware Culture as per my link. It is also known as Battle Axe culture, and I like this name better for some reason. :)
Anyway the one that went into central Europe 5000 years ago.
 
I have noticed that Corded Ware is more commonly used now.
Maybe someone could comment if the Corded Ware would be specific to the Volga Battle Axe culture or if there was a type of overlap.
 
Regulus said:
I have noticed that Corded Ware is more commonly used now.
Maybe someone could comment if the Corded Ware would be specific to the Volga Battle Axe culture or if there was a type of overlap.
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As far as I am aware, the Corded Ware culture took in all from the Rhine to the Volga, so they are the same thing essentially.
 
Getting back to the thread topic; I definately don't think can talk about the Germanic people as being 'Indo-European' or 'native European' as they are clearly a mixture of both, with the main cocktail ingredients of I1, R1a1 and R1b.

Some regard I1 as 'the core' of the Germanic people though. One can easily understand why this is. From a population genetics perspective, I1 [and R1a1 for that matter] are far more use than R1b for tracing echoes of the Germanics. This is simply because both I1 and R1a1 are effectively absent from Celtic lands. R1b, whilst having Germanic-leaning clades such as U198/S29 and U106/S21 is quite obviously abundant in Celtic lands. Whether hobbyists like it or not, and some most definately hate the idea, most Population Geneticists still regard R1b as essentially a 'Celtic marker'. That will frustrate those who claim that their U106 came to northern England with the Danes or Angles but it is there nevertheless. If one finds I1 genes, inevitably Germanics follow...
 
Regulus said:
Just a thought to make sure that all of us on on the same sheet of music-

Those of us that mention the Battle Axe Culture as a carrier of R1a are probably referring to that of the Volga Battle Axe culture specifically.

The Steppe Battle Axe culture, which may be what others are thinking about when they see "Battle Axe culture", should be more associated with the Proto Thraco-Cimmerians, who dominated the steppe at that time.

To the East of both were the proto Iranians, who would eventually would provide the group that was to push the Cimmerians completely off the steppe, the Scythians.

It came to me that someone may dispute the position that a group may have carried R1a but that he may have a different particular group in mind when he sees the words "Battle Axe Culture".

I think that the Steppe Battle Axe culture also could have carried R1a. I just wanted to clarify this because the topic was about the R1a group that mixed in to become Germans, and that appears to be the Volga group.
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I think that I need to make a correction here:

I started looking at this in more detail and realized that I entirely missed the "Baltic' Battle Axe Culture". This may very well be a more likely candidate than the "Volga" one since it is much closer and is associated with proto-Balts, who could possibly be a if not the source of R1a in Germanic people. I remember reading at some point that the proto-Germanic language could have influence from proto Balts or Slavs.

Sorry Yorkie, I will keep it to haplogroup "I" in this thread from now on.

 
Regulus said:
I think that I need to make a correction here:

I started looking at this in more detail and realized that I entirely missed the "Baltic' Battle Axe Culture". This may very well be a more likely candidate than the "Volga" one since it is much closer and is associated with proto-Balts, who could possibly be a if not the source of R1a in Germanic people. I remember reading at some point that the proto-Germanic language could have influence from proto Balts or Slavs.

Sorry Yorkie, I will keep it to haplogroup "I" in this thread from now on.
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No need to apologise. Just a quickie re R1a1... I think there is a difference between the form of R1a1 found in the Germanic gene-pool [Scandinavia, Germany, England, Scotland, Northern Isles etc] and the Slavic gene-pool [Poland etc]. A new snp was discovered last year which delineates between them. The Corded Ware Eulau remains found in Germany recently were of a Germany-leaning form.

Back to I haplogroup and Germanics. I definately think that the 23 at 390, 14, 14 at 385a,b, 13 at 462 and 12, 14, 15, 16 form [corresponding to Nordtvedt's 'Norse' I1 and Barac's 'Nordic' form] is prevalent in deep Scandinavia and a 'Viking' indicator. My English Grandfather's I1 is of this type and the closest matches are Norway followed by Sweden. This 23 at 390, 13 at 462 I1 is nearly always an indicator of Norse ancestry in British men. Maybe this form is the one carried from Germany up into Scandinavia in the colonisation period by the Teutons?
 
Wow, that is a lot to follow for a new guy.

Could the I1 have been there when the R1b and/or R1a migants arrived?
Just trying to get a feel on the haplogroups and times - it is still very new to me.

I had been thinking along the lines of I1 being possibly carried by the Ertebolle people, but I am very open to those who know more.
 
Yorkie said:
No need to apologise. Just a quickie re R1a1... I think there is a difference between the form of R1a1 found in the Germanic gene-pool [Scandinavia, Germany, England, Scotland, Northern Isles etc] and the Slavic gene-pool [Poland etc]. A new snp was discovered last year which delineates between them. The Corded Ware Eulau remains found in Germany recently were of a Germany-leaning form.
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I do not think this is really correct....
what you say is based on gross misinterpretation of the article that was discussed on the thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25925 ...

article does not claim what some people on forum wanted to see in it.... I have explained my viewpoint here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361355&postcount=15
 
how yes no said:
I do not think this is really correct....
what you say is based on gross misinterpretation of the article that was discussed on the thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25925 ...

article does not claim what some people on forum wanted to see in it.... I have explained my viewpoint here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361355&postcount=15
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Howyesno,
This has to be discussed on another thread really, but I will answer your points. I do not consider that I have 'grossly misinterpreted' anything. From Underhill [2009] it seems clear that R1a1 was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period- some 4,500 years ago. The Slavs did not 'give' this to Germany, as they did not enter Central Europe until 1,500 years ago.

Secondly, as Underhill [ibid] shows, Slavic R1a1 mainly falls into the M458 subclade, which is virtually absent in Germany and Scandinavia.

We really must not hijack this thread re R1a1- it is about I haplogroup.
 
Regulus said:
Wow, that is a lot to follow for a new guy.

Could the I1 have been there when the R1b and/or R1a migants arrived?
Just trying to get a feel on the haplogroups and times - it is still very new to me.

I had been thinking along the lines of I1 being possibly carried by the Ertebolle people, but I am very open to those who know more.
Click to expand...

Based on Ken Nordtvedt's calculations, TMRCA of I1 was around 3,500 years ago, and probably living in the vicinity of modern-day Denmark. Underhill seems to support this position.
 
Regulus said:
Wow, that is a lot to follow for a new guy.

Could the I1 have been there when the R1b and/or R1a migants arrived?
Just trying to get a feel on the haplogroups and times - it is still very new to me.

I had been thinking along the lines of I1 being possibly carried by the Ertebolle people, but I am very open to those who know more.
Click to expand...

Well, according to the calculations of Ken Nordtvedt [and seemingly supported by Underhill], TMRCA of I1 was around 3,500 years ago and living in the vicinity of present-day Denmark. I1 is a young clade.
 
I defer to the experts in this case. I do not get to take Genetics 101 until I pass Introduction to Genetics.
 
Yorkie said:
Howyesno,
This has to be discussed on another thread really, but I will answer your points. I do not consider that I have 'grossly misinterpreted' anything. From Underhill [2009] it seems clear that R1a1 was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period- some 4,500 years ago. The Slavs did not 'give' this to Germany, as they did not enter Central Europe until 1,500 years ago.

Secondly, as Underhill [ibid] shows, Slavic R1a1 mainly falls into the M458 subclade, which is virtually absent in Germany and Scandinavia.

We really must not hijack this thread re R1a1- it is about I haplogroup.
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we are not highjacking thread, as those are related issues.... since I am pretty sure that in early Slavs haplogroup I was dominant haplogroup...

R1a that is in Germany already for 4500 years is the same as the one that is dominant in Poland and Russia... look at data in appendix of that work....or read carefully my reply on that thread...

and btw. R1a probably has nothing to do with early Slavs...
spread of early Slavs has clear signature of I2a2...
R1a are probably assimilated Scythian, Sarmatian and other native people of those areas...who were probably speaking similar language with early Slavs...

very Slavic Serbs and Macedonians have up to 15% R1a...and according to Klyosov that R1a is on Balkan for thousand years before their arrival....

according to
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
(testing done for 179 individuals from Serbia)

Serbia has 48% of haplogroup I which is in fact more than Germany...

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%


now, ethnic Albanians from Macedonia who never mixed with Slavic people have approximatelly the same R1a percentage as Slavic Serbs and Macedonians .... and Slavic people of Montenegro (who considered themselves Serbs till recently) have only around half of that value ..

http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


difference between Slavic Macedonians and Albanians is that Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 and Albanians by E-V13, J2b2 and R1b and even I1, both groups of haplogroup distinguishing for Slavs and for Albanians are superimposed on same base substratum consisting of R1a and G2a...
this is clear indication that Slavs who settled Macedonia were I2a2...
I2a2 is common dominant denominator for all south Slavs, while other genetics is quite different...

early Slavs are according to Jordanes the race of Veneti... and I have indicated on many places throughout forum reasons why Veneti are dominantly I2a2 people.....in fact they are likely source of I2a people....e.g. search for only two I2a* samples found..... one is I2a*-P37.2-France and other is I2a*-P37.2-Alpine
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

of those (only two found) I2a* samples, one is exact match with location of Veneti of Brittany/Gaul, other with Veneti of Adriatic...

besides early Slavs are Venedi, Sclavini and Antes/Anti, Anti being obvious tribal name derivation from Eneti (Veneti origin from Paphlagonia Eneti), and Venedi being obviously same tribal name as Veneti....


I2a2 shows exact correlation with core and directions of spread as early Slavs...R1a shows nothing alike...

btw. on Balkan R1a hotspot strongly correlates with ancient Macedonians.... it is more present in Greek Macedonia than in all neighbouring Slavic countries... and shape of its spread is exact match with teritory of ancient Macedonia...

or look at Hungary...R1a hotspot in Hungary is a line through center of Hungary...Magyars settled in center of Hungary, while previous assimilated people (also many Slavic people) one can expect on outskirts of their settlement... and indeed south Slavs, central Ukraine and Romania cluster with east/west Hungary but not with center... (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html)

R1A_map.jpg

Origins_500A.png

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg
 
I agree with Underhill that there is a difference in the German/Scandinavian R1a1 and the type found in Poland, Russia etc. Again, the type found in Poland, Russia etc is largely in M458. That is absent in Germanic/Scandinavian lands. There is a difference...
 
Yorkie said:
I agree with Underhill that there is a difference in the German/Scandinavian R1a1 and the type found in Poland, Russia etc. Again, the type found in Poland, Russia etc is largely in M458. That is absent in Germanic/Scandinavian lands. There is a difference...
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you did not even bother to read my post....

I dare you to:

1) quote the sentence of Underhill that claims that German/Scandinavian R1a1 is different than the one found in Poland, Russia...

2) to point out that difference in the supplementary data


here is abstract with link to supplementary info...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/abs/ejhg2009194a.html

this is supplementary info, look at table and point out the data that indicate your claims....

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/...rl=/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/abs/ejhg2009194a.html

and this is complete text on web site of one of the authors

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-co...c-European-Journal-of-Human-Genetics-2009.pdf
 
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