Haplogroup in T in Germany?

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Lauren Elizabeth

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I read somewhere the Y-DNA haplogroup T was found in relatively high frequency in small areas of Germany (also the Tyrolian Alps region). Does anyone have more information about this?
 
Lauren Elizabeth said:
I read somewhere the Y-DNA haplogroup T was found in relatively high frequency in small areas of Germany (also the Tyrolian Alps region). Does anyone have more information about this?
Click to expand...

many papers below support the ~8% of T and its sister ~4% L
http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

also write to Chris ( very helpful) https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy/


Nat.Gen states between 3 to 21% in southern Germany for the T ydna marker ( unsure where they get this from ). The only Basal T-M184 in the T project are from Germany and Turkish-Armenia. But there are other basal markers....like my M272 which is North Caucasus and Eastern alps .............

There is also 3 papers ( year 2013) on the tyrol/austria/italy border areas .................there is a thread on it in this forum ...........also ask Nobody1 as he is an expert in the area
 
Haak 2015 paper ............ydna T1a in Germany

I0795......... T1a-PF5604 ( mtdna is H1bz )


LBK_ENThis individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today.


OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
LBK EN........... I0795........... CC

Genotypes for the SNP rs1042602 in the gene TYR for prehistoric European samples.
The derived A allele of this SNP is associated with light skin and an absence of freckles.

LBK_EN.......... I0795............ CC

TYR, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles


 
Hauteville said:
Interesting map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg
Click to expand...

depends how old it is , but egypt, arabian peninsula and africa where the last to get the T marker ..................all studies from genetic papers.

The east african study is interesting, they went there around 400AD with J1 as slavers of the africans.......it seems while europeans put west -africans under slavery , the arabians, persians and indians put east-africans under slavery
 
Sile said:
Haak 2015 paper ............ydna T1a in Germany

I0795......... T1a-PF5604 ( mtdna is H1bz )


LBK_ENThis individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today.


OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
LBK EN........... I0795........... CC

Genotypes for the SNP rs1042602 in the gene TYR for prehistoric European samples.
The derived A allele of this SNP is associated with light skin and an absence of freckles.

LBK_EN.......... I0795............ CC

TYR, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles
Click to expand...

The only break-up of AuDna mix for I0795 I have seen

ANE 0.02
Caucasian 20.47
WHG 7.65
EEF 60.72
East Asian 0.34
Sub-saharan 0.68
Near East 9.56
Archaic African 0.57


IMO, looks purely either south-caucasus or north anatolian
 
Many different sources, but also in this case we can guess a minor lineage of both Neolithic farmers or Proto-Indo-European speakers.

Wilde et al. (2014) tested mtDNA samples from the Yamna culture, the presumed homeland of Proto-Indo-European speakers, and found T2a1b in the Middle Volga region and Bulgaria, and T1a both in central Ukraine and the Middle Volga. The frequency of T1a and T2 in Yamna samples were each 14.5%, a percentage higher than in any country today and only found in similarly high frequencies among the Udmurts of the Volga-Ural region.
Click to expand...
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full
 
Pax Augusta said:
Many different sources, but also in this case we can guess a minor lineage of both Neolithic farmers or Proto-Indo-European speakers.


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full
Click to expand...

I think you are confused ..............I am speaking about T1 ( ydna ) who is 5200 years old and found in central germany with a mtdna of H1bz

you give me T1 and T2 of mtdna ..............the ydna and mtdna for T have nothing in common
 
Sile said:
...you give me T1 and T2 of mtdna ..............the ydna and mtdna for T have nothing in common
Click to expand...

Good point. It's easy to look at the similar nomenclature of y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups and assume that someone who gets a y-DNA hg of T and an mtDNA hg of T can conclude that their parents are related. The letters are arbitrary and follow different schemes. mtDNA haplogroups, being the older of the two, are more haphazard and seem to follow no clear ordering scheme.
 
Ancient DNA

Haplogroup T1a-PF5604 has been found in a 7200ybp indivudal from Karsdorf, Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany. This T1a skeletal remain belongs to the Linienbandkeramische Kultur. T1a from Karsdorf reach 20% of all the samples between 7300 and 6900 ybp in Germany, being the other 80% the G2a from Halberstadt. His mtDNA has been found to be H1* and his autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.



7000-year-old structure of Pagan cult in Goseck, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt. The Goseck Circle


The site of Karsdorf is located in the valley of Unstrut, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. The slope on which Karsdorf is located is characterized by alluvial loess. The place itself was settled intensively since the earliest phase of the LBK in the region. The settlement area is at least 50 acres in size and nearly 30 houses have been excavated. So-called ‘settlement burials’ were regularly found in pits in the center of the settlement area, of which individual KAR6/I0795 (feature 170, 5207-5070 calBCE, MAMS 22823) was sampled for this study.[186][187]
The LBK settlement of Karsdorf (Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt) is located approximately 100km south of Derenburg and Halberstadt, on the river Unstrut, and was occupied between 5240 and 5000 BC (Behnke, 2007). The Neolithic buildings(n=24) of three settlement stages are dated to the early and middle LBK (after Meier-Arendt 1966). Except for four graves, all of the 30 burials are associated in groups next to houses in the centre of the settlement, similar to the site of Halberstadt. The individuals are buried in house-flanking pit graves at the western side of the houses and mostly arranged in north-east or north-west orientation. Grave goods are sparse; few graves contained more than one pot or a shell or horn pendant. Associated with every house group we can identify a person with outstanding grave inventory, who may represent a founding generation.|Oelze et al.[188]




I0795 (LBK_EN) This individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today.
— Haak 2015​

[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD]ID[/TD]
[TD]Y-DNA[/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Language[/TD]
[TD]Culture[/TD]
[TD]Date(ybp)[/TD]
[TD]Location[/TD]
[TD]Members/SS[/TD]
[TD]Percentage[/TD]
[TD]mtDNA[/TD]
[TD]Autosomal SNPs[/TD]
[TD]Ancestral Components[/TD]
[TD]Sample[/TD]
[TD]Source[/TD]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I0795 - KAR6a - Feature 170[/TD]
[TD]T1a-M70[/TD]
[TD]Early European Neolithic[/TD]
[TD]Paleo-European[/TD]
[TD]Linearbandkeramik[/TD]
[TD]7200[/TD]
[TD]Karsdorf[/TD]
[TD]1/1[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]H1*[/TD]
[TD]47804[/TD]
[TD]Western European Hunter-Gatherer and Basal Eurasian[/TD]
[TD]Tooth[/TD]
[TD][187][/TD]
[TD]Goseck circle[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Hi - I am pretty new to testing. I used my brother's & father's DNA to get started on my male line. They test as T-PAGES00011. They were T-L131 up until about 6 months ago. Our earliest known ancestor Jacob Dufford comes off the ship - HERO - in Philadelphia on October 24, 1764. Family history has it that he is from Alsace Lorraine and probably the Canton de Bitche region. The family name through the years in America becomes Teaford. I think we are the only ones I've seen that are T-PAGES00011. Anyone with any information regarding this name, please let me know. I joined the T and Alsace groups over on FTDNA. My MTDNA is H. I've done the Y testing on my brother up through 67 markers. We have one match who thinks his ancestors are from Ireland. These are our confirmed SNPs. I can find about 20 people who have T-PAGES00011 listed in their SNPS and they are almost exclusively in Arabic (which I don't speak).

CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00011+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+​
 
Teaford said:
Hi - I am pretty new to testing. I used my brother's & father's DNA to get started on my male line. They test as T-PAGES00011. They were T-L131 up until about 6 months ago. Our earliest known ancestor Jacob Dufford comes off the ship - HERO - in Philadelphia on October 24, 1764. Family history has it that he is from Alsace Lorraine and probably the Canton de Bitche region. The family name through the years in America becomes Teaford. I think we are the only ones I've seen that are T-PAGES00011. Anyone with any information regarding this name, please let me know. I joined the T and Alsace groups over on FTDNA. My MTDNA is H. I've done the Y testing on my brother up through 67 markers. We have one match who thinks his ancestors are from Ireland. These are our confirmed SNPs. I can find about 20 people who have T-PAGES00011 listed in their SNPS and they are almost exclusively in Arabic (which I don't speak).

CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00011+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+​
Click to expand...

Maybe you can join ALPGEN project in ftdna .......CHris ( project manager) seems to hunt down ancient lines from the alps or near the alps.

Alsace and Auvergne are high spots in percentage for T1 in france

I am negative for Pages 00011 ..........
 
IS there a way to contact a mod? why can't i post a thread with video links?
 
Interesting results from studies about temperature, climatology and LBK groups (classified as members of the LBK by default). They link these LBK groups to success in adverse cold and wet climates, matching population growth and establishment of new settlements with cold peaks.

"During the 8.2 kyr event, the worse climate event of the Holocene produced by the coincidence of several solar and non-solar causes, several farmer groups expanded into the Balkans. This event marked a significant population decline in the hunter-gatherer societies of Europe [14], probably facilitating the invasion. At around 7.7 kyr BP, when the climate deteriorates again, arises the LBK culture that flourishes and expands into hunter-gatherer areas during the 7.7-7.0 kyr period, substituting the human populations that lived in Central Europe. According to Dubouloz[15], the LBK culture was well adapted to cold, wet periods through construction of robust buildings, placement of villages in tertiary drainage networks, well away from flood risk areas, the importance of cattle-herding, a marked reduction of the Balkan early Neolithic range of cultivated plants, and the practice of autumn sowing in intensively cultivated plots."

"Dubouloz[15], and Gronenborn[16], show that LBK expansion follows a climatic rhythm. LBK forms during the increasingly colder 7.7 kyr event and initiates its dispersal around 7.5 kyr BP at the peak of cold conditions. During the period of warmer drier climate that followed the 7.7 kyr event LBK consolidates a wide territory. The next period of dispersal initiates again at the next cold period around 7.3 kyr BP when LBK crosses the Rhine into Alsace and present time Dutch area. It is 200 years later during another cold period around 7.1 Kyr BP when LBK experiments its last dispersal into the Seine basin. Demographic analysis of LBK habitation[15] indicates that periods of dispersal coincide not only with cold, wet, periods but also with periods of maximal population, suggesting that the difficult conditions that gave the LBK its edge over other human groups, also caused the hardship and population decline that usually instigates climate migration. The arrival of better climate conditions after 7.0 kyr BP probably rendered the harsh climate adaptations of LBK disadvantageous and the culture quickly disorganized, losing its vast circulation networks of raw materials, and disappeared."
 
Alpenjager said:
Interesting results from studies about temperature, climatology and LBK groups (classified as members of the LBK by default). They link these LBK groups to success in adverse cold and wet climates, matching population growth and establishment of new settlements with cold peaks.

"During the 8.2 kyr event, the worse climate event of the Holocene produced by the coincidence of several solar and non-solar causes, several farmer groups expanded into the Balkans. This event marked a significant population decline in the hunter-gatherer societies of Europe [14], probably facilitating the invasion. At around 7.7 kyr BP, when the climate deteriorates again, arises the LBK culture that flourishes and expands into hunter-gatherer areas during the 7.7-7.0 kyr period, substituting the human populations that lived in Central Europe. According to Dubouloz[15], the LBK culture was well adapted to cold, wet periods through construction of robust buildings, placement of villages in tertiary drainage networks, well away from flood risk areas, the importance of cattle-herding, a marked reduction of the Balkan early Neolithic range of cultivated plants, and the practice of autumn sowing in intensively cultivated plots."

"Dubouloz[15], and Gronenborn[16], show that LBK expansion follows a climatic rhythm. LBK forms during the increasingly colder 7.7 kyr event and initiates its dispersal around 7.5 kyr BP at the peak of cold conditions. During the period of warmer drier climate that followed the 7.7 kyr event LBK consolidates a wide territory. The next period of dispersal initiates again at the next cold period around 7.3 kyr BP when LBK crosses the Rhine into Alsace and present time Dutch area. It is 200 years later during another cold period around 7.1 Kyr BP when LBK experiments its last dispersal into the Seine basin. Demographic analysis of LBK habitation[15] indicates that periods of dispersal coincide not only with cold, wet, periods but also with periods of maximal population, suggesting that the difficult conditions that gave the LBK its edge over other human groups, also caused the hardship and population decline that usually instigates climate migration. The arrival of better climate conditions after 7.0 kyr BP probably rendered the harsh climate adaptations of LBK disadvantageous and the culture quickly disorganized, losing its vast circulation networks of raw materials, and disappeared."
Click to expand...
From what I gathered, a serious encroachment of LBK into Balkans, the one that lasted, started after Younger Dryas, around 5,600 BC. Expansion of LBK marks warmer period, not a cold one.
 
LeBrok said:
From what I gathered, a serious encroachment of LBK into Balkans, the one that lasted, started after Younger Dryas, around 5,600 BC. Expansion of LBK marks warmer period, not a cold one.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should update your sources. These studies are: Dubouloz, Jérôme; et al. (2008), Shennan, Stephen; et al. (2013) and Gronenborn, Detlef; et al. (2013).
 
LBK temperatures.jpgLBK demography.jpg
Temperatures, Demography and Expansion
 
Alpenjager said:
View attachment 8365View attachment 8366
Temperatures, Demography and Expansion
Click to expand...
Sorry, it wasn't Younger Dryas, it was another cold event at that date. With maximum strength around year 6,000 BC. Your LBK map shows beginning of their expansion at 7550 BP which is 5550 BC. I said 5600 BC. Which was right in the warm part of climate. It makes more sense that Farmers from Anatolia moved North in a very warm period. Why would they go North into cold where their crops can't survive? What would they it?

4994240435_b68b77ea6f_b.jpg
 
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