Politics Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

Hm I read all of you,

Greece is a very strange case,

Although lost at least 300 000 places of work to just 1 country, Bulgaria,
who wonders how many others in Balkans.
the things that IMF and EU suggest tend to loose more places of work,
Greece made a referendum which started with another question, and ended with another question, and stupidity,

Greece is tottaly another story, for example notice
that Greece has an army machine, that not even Visegrad with 60 million does not have,
ranking at a position that not even Germany has, although the last has military industry,
just think except Serbia, Greece has much military as all the behind iron curtain countries, now in EU,

imagine what will happen if EU dismiss an army equal to Italian army,
ranking at 4-6 place in EU,

Italy's case is very different,
Italy's problem is not the same with Greece,
in Italy the problem existed before their unification,
Only The things I read here, are enough to remind me another country,
The Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia before 1970's was a quite progressive country, and its president manage to hold back autonomistic problems,
but after 1970's when gave partial economical autonomy and priviladges, open the bag of the Aeolos and release the winds.
so by what I read Italy's system is just like EU system,
os they either run back to a confederation of States, either they must go ahead to a central fiscal union with no autonomies.

the main problem EU has,

as for the Euro,
Yes it is the No 1 problem with many EU countries and yet is the No 1 salvation for others,
But is not the only one,

for example just look at Eu with open borders, and free to travel corporations,
the succed of Greece for example was that manage with lower taxes to have such a military machine,
today by raising taxes not only lost industry and working places and money, but is in danger to lose the military balance,
Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,

the other factor,
the game among EU-Russia-NATO,

do we know and understand that major energy provider for Central and North Europe is Gazprom from Russia?
as also what kind of market it is?
just remember that 1 year embargo, some baltic countries lost even 70% of their exportations, etc etc.

So the main question is WHAT EUROPE WE WANT?

if Greece abbandons her army, surely it will be a prosperous country,
BUT WILL EU REPLACE THAT ARMY IN MEDITTEREAN?

and offcourse, the most easy to blaime Mercel,
Yes Germany is the main economical locomotive of EU
Yes Germany is possesed with an economical austerity
but that austerity is killing South Europe,

The main problem is not Italy or Greece or Portugal,
the main problem is in the mind of EU,
for example the ELM emergency liquid mechanism that started first timeat the times the Greek crisis is a foundamental mechanism for future of EU,
EU must start to build more unification laws,
otherwise will end with a civil war like USA at 1800's or with 2 EU's

the Euro balance the last 2 years is not against EU, by a ratio E/$ 1.1-1.15 is quite good, yet not competιtive,
but considering the killing 1,60 that was once, is much better.

We open a wide EU very fast, before stabilizing against crush tests the older ones.
 
Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,

Red somethings that confirms this Yetos.....There were in the negotiations with EU some policy advice to cut the military spending....but the Germans were against it because Greece was a big costumer. Sometimes we life in a strange, absurd world... A drop in the military budget was for the Greece population may be the least hurting...but the defense lobby in Germany prevailed.
 
EU must start to build more unification laws,

I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.
 
I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.

Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
well, at least they supported Tsipras and Varoufakis who were going for a large debt relief
that is another similarity between Italy and Greece
the new government parties also campaigned for a debt relief
again, nothing of that is found back in the new government deal
Greece, in the end got partial debt relief and de facto refinancement at new, very favourable rates,
but they had to accept fargoing austerity measures to get it
it was not the way Tsipras and Varoufakis had promised

If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

(I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

(I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.

maybe they can get something
but at conditions that will dissapoint all of their voters

and yes, the Greek bailout prevented bankruptcy of the banks, some German banks, but also Greek banks, and the money was not given to the banks, but to Greece
and yes, Greece had to pay the banks with that money
but if Greece hadn't received that money, Greece could start printing their own drachmes which would have been worth less than the paper they were printed on
 
Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....
Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.
 
Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.

you make it perfectly clear
everybody his Europe

that means there is no Europe
 
Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).
 
Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).

Especially when they don't have any knowledge whatsoever about Italy or clearly even about economics in general. Nobel prize-winning economists, a whole raft of non-European economists, as a matter of fact, are all disdainfully dismissed because their point of view doesn't support the "party" line fed to Europeans by EU and Euro supporting European economists.

Italy has caved on the Euro. When this doesn't work, I hope Italians insist on it at the polls. If the stock market keeps going in the right direction, maybe I'll retire really early, move back and start agitating. :)

That's not to say that I don't think Italian economic policy is screwed up, because I do: too much socialism, not enough capitalism.

It's the tone of the commentary here to which I object more than anything else. That same old, same old condescension and rudeness toward any Southern European country. You don't know how tempted I am sometimes to let loose on their countries and tell them exactly what I think of what I see as their problems and shortcomings, but our parents raised us to behave with some civility and politeness.
 
Last edited:
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.
 
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

That crosses the line. Do that again and you'll get an infraction.

Some informed commentary from The Financial Times.
https://www.ft.com/content/b09b785a...9e233c8#myft:notification:daily-email:content
 
The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.

President Trump

15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)
 
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

what you obviously don't know is that most Belgians, including me are rather pragmatic and not chauvinist at all
and sometimes we make fun with overly chauvinistic people in other countries
 
Here we go again The populism and dystopia of Italys new government

Thank you Aragorn881; well presented.Now, anyone else have some thoughts to add?___
 
The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.

President Trump

15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)

The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-conte-to-lead-m5s-alliance-as-deadline-looms
 
The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-conte-to-lead-m5s-alliance-as-deadline-looms


That’s an old post, The Italian Government has fallen, and we still don't know who the next Prime Minister is going to be or if they re gonna give the job back to Conte again.

Also the alliances are changing, (“inciuccio”) and may be that the next government will be Left leaning.

The Lega is being sidelined by the Democrats.

The United States as an Economic and Military Power exercising its influence on other Countries, is hardly comparable with other Ancient Empires, in objectives, methods, and tactics.
 

This thread has been viewed 59200 times.

Back
Top