Horse remains and "saddle" unearthed in Pompei

[Angela]

Interesting that even at this late date there were no stirrups for a "military" horse, and stability was through some sort of wooden contraption. It reminds me of the speculation about how Richard III was stabilized atop his war mounts.

See:
https://www.archaeology.org/news/7264-181223-pompeii-horse-unearthed

"News of the latest exciting discovery in Pompeii comes from The Guardian, which reports that archaeologists excavating in an exceptionally well-preserved villa just north of the city have uncovered an intact horse buried by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. The horse, one of two, or perhaps three, found thus far in the villa’s stables, still wears a military-style harness. The team has also unearthed bronze elements of what they believe to be a type of saddle with four horns and a wooden substructure that provided stability for the rider at a time before the adoption of stirrups. This saddle design is known to have been for military use. According to Massimo Osanna, the director general of the Pompeii Archaeological Park, the horses were thoroughbreds and belonged to the wealthy villa’s owner, who may have been a general in the Roman army."

 

[Milan.M]

I have seen this,well for stirrups is thought to have came to Europe with Avars,6th century,no archeological proof for before that,and yet some members were speculating that IE from the steppe were grabbing woman on their horseback of other cultures,let alone the stability on the horse without stirrups which is hardly to manage alone,fantasy makes it true.

I don't know if the steppe IE people had saddle for example?

Or the bridle for example which is credited in ancient Greek mythology to the Lapiths.

There is a lot of equipment for horse riding which evolved with time to allow people to manipulate them.

 

[Angela]

I have seen this,well for stirrups is thought to have came to Europe with Avars,6th century,no archeological proof for before that,and yet some members were speculating that IE from the steppe were grabbing woman on their horseback of other cultures,let alone the stability on the horse without stirrups which is hardly to manage alone,fantasy makes it true.

I don't know if the steppe IE people had saddle for example?

Or the bridle for example which is credited in ancient Greek mythology to the Lapiths.

There is a lot of equipment for horse riding which evolved with time to allow people to manipulate them.

That seems to be the standard thinking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup

However, I do remember David Anthony saying something about finding what may have been remains of stirrups. Or am I misremembering? I tend to doubt it's real, because the obvious utility of this technology would tend to mean, imo, that it would have been remembered, and no need to re-invent it.

If it was a sort of stirrup, I would think it would have been of the toe loop variety. I certainly wouldn't have trusted it.

There have often been attempts to correlate IE horse riding with that of the American Indians, implying that the latter didn't use stirrups. That's of course untrue.

Indians learned about horses from the Spanish.

"In 1621, the Spanish governor in New Mexico gave the Spanish ranchers permission to use Pueblo men on horseback to tend the horse and cattle herds. When some of these men escaped from their Spanish vassalage, they took the horses-and the knowledge about how to care for them and ride them-with them. The first official record of horse-mounted Indians was in 1623 when Fray Benavides, a Franciscan, encountered a band of Gila Apache and reported that their war chief was riding a horse."

"It should be noted that when we talk about the diffusion of the modern horse, we are talking about more than the animal itself. If an Indian who had never seen a horse before were to encounter one in the wild, it would resemble a funny-looking elk. One does not ride an elk in Indian culture: instead, the elk is killed and eaten. Thus the coming of the horse into Indian cultures refers to the cultural package that must come with the horse if it is to be incorporated into the culture as a domesticated animal. This includes the knowledge about how to care for the horse, to ride it, and to make the accessories (saddles and bridles) that are needed.While the Hollywood stereotype shows Indians riding their horses bareback, in reality the saddle and bridle diffused with the horse. Plains Indians copied the Spanish saddles by stretching green buffalo hide over wooden frames. Later, warriors and hunters developed a kind of “pad” saddle which was a kind of pillow stuffed with hair or grass to which a girth and short stirrups were attached."

The stirrups were made of plaited grass.

https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/528

Hollywood is responsible for a lot of uninformed speculation.

Imo, much of IE "scholarship" has consisted of taking "data" from late steppe people like the Scythians and Avars and even the Huns, and back projecting it all onto the Bronze Age steppe people.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I don't remember David Anthony mentioning any stirrups.
It was all about findings supposed to be horse bits.
I guess in warfare being able to shoot arrows from horseback was a major breakthrough.
Though the Romans and the Celtic and Germanic tribes did use their cavalry just for charging with the sword.

 

[Angela]

I don't remember David Anthony mentioning any stirrups.
It was all about findings supposed to be horse bits.
I guess in warfare being able to shoot arrows from horseback was a major breakthrough.
Though the Romans and the Celtic and Germanic tribes did use their cavalry just for charging with the sword.

You're right: he claimed to found evidence of horse bits.

Apparently they also had some sort of superstructure of wood to keep them stable.

Amazing the consequences for such a little bit of innovation as stirrups.

It seems so obvious, but hindsight is, of course, 20/20.