Right now I'm using the Eupedia map Maciamo made
Really, almost 100%? That's problematic from any point of view, then (especially with the recent dating for the MRCA). What about Albania and Greece, for example? I simply can't see so much Slavic influence there (especially in places such as the Peloponnese).
I agree that this is problematic. The I2a2 in the Balkans cannot be Slavic or Sarmatian if it is so different from the I2a found in other parts of Eastern Europe.
When I say I favour the hypothesis of the Paleolithic continuity, I don't mean that I2a2-Din already existed in the Paleolithic, but that I2* was all over Europe in the Paleolithic, then only became I2a around the Mesolithic, I2a2 perhaps in the late Mesolithic or early Neolithic, and eventually I2a2-Din in the Chalcolithic or Bronze Age. It doesn't mean that the ancestors of the modern I2a-Din were already in the Balkans in the Paleolithic. However I look at it, I can't see how I2a-Din could have been in the Balkans before the Neolithic. A hypothesis that I like is that the I2a2 people from the Danube region were pushed away by Neolithic farmers (G2a) and moved to the Balkans and the Carpathians, where they evolved into different subclades.
Another possibility is that I2a2 came from Eastern Anatolia along with G2a during the Neolithic, and each variety of I2a2 developed once Neolithic farmers had settled permanently in one place.
First of all, that link is from 2006, before much research had been done into I1 STR diversity. Secondly, read it more closely:
Basically he's saying that based on what he knew at the time (back in 2006) it seemed more likely that the migration pattern was Slovenia to Scandinavia rather than Scandinavia to Slovenia, but he refused to rule out a Germanic migration into the Balkans.
But a Germanic migration into the Balkans is what seems more likely now. Take a look at Slovenian samples in the I1 Project. None stretch their STR patterns outside of existing, principally Germanic clusters like AS-gen and T2. The best explanation for them now is likely East Germanic origin.
Why can't the "Illyrian" marker(s) be R1b and Neolithic or Bronze Age markers like J2, E1b, G2a? Why does there have to have been Paleolithic remnants? Maybe they all drifted away.
If I had to pick an existing haplogroup to be "the" Paleolithic remnant in the Balkans, I would guess I2b-ADR, which hasn't been found there yet AFAIK, but has been found in Italy, and could be a chunk of that "I2*" without I2b-ADR or I2c SNPs tested that's been found in the Balkans.
Yes the link is 2006 , far younger than the link you provided as the 2 that are newer has no reference to our discussion
I read it that the german I1a went to sweden and not the slovenian one.
If you think the slovenian I1a HG is east germanic, then lets assume that R1a and I2a-din never arrived in western Balkans. Are you saying then, this germanic I1a reached northern greece and all of the western balkans in the great % that is there now.
Ok, but not part of this discussion
because the percentages are not significant once you eliminate the R1a and I2a-din
If I recall an earlier KenN note saying the western I2a1 went from spain to venice and directly a line north of venice. I think he called it an anti R1a HG.
[[ I would not be so cowardly to guess such a broad upstream haplogroup
category as Hg I. I guess I2b-ADR L415+ L416+ L417+ found today on the
shores of the northern Adriatic Sea. Ken ]]
You refer to this comment above for I2b-ADR
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf
I guess this I2b-ADR was a made up HG to catecorize Otzi in September 2011, prior to finding he was G2a
Huh? Yours is older, and the links I provided are relevant to I1 analysis, which is what we were talking about.
Are you trying to say they are gothic and vandal HG in western balkans ,I'm not sure if I1 is old enough to have some pre-Germanic Eastern European components; if it does, they are possibly in the T2 STR cluster, but I doubt that the members in the AS clusters are anything other than East Germanic. That seems to place I1 as at least largely East Germanic in origin for its distribution in the Balkans and Greece. I don't see a "great percentage" to discount this, anyway... there's mostly single-digit I1 in the region.
true if its only 1 sub-clade of I1a ( I1) existsOh, but it is. If the origin of I1 is Schleswig-Holstein, and the TMRCA of it is really as young as Nordtvedt calculates, then we should expect a tight coupling of I1 carriers and Germanic ancestry. That's my point.
thats what we are discussing, for your theory to work , another Hg had to be in the western balkans. I am trying to figure out if I1a is that HGSo? Why can't the R1a and I2a-Din be largely recent introductions? And why couldn't the Neolithic haplogroups have displaced the Paleolithic ones? Two major displacements could have resulted in practically no Paleolithic remnants in the region.
irrelevant at this time to have any impact on this discussionI2b-ADR isn't a made up clade, living people have it, just not very many. Nordtvedt guessed Ötzi to be I2b-ADR and was wrong... I suspect that I2b-ADR was generally more Southern during Ötzi's time, but the data on that clade is badly deficient. Maybe that's why we're all guessing it to be a missing link for any particular problem that pops up.
Which is the one to read ?
i see 2001, 2005 etc etc
Are you trying to say they are gothic and vandal HG in western balkans ,
In regards to percentages, they are single digit because the R1a and i2a-din makes them so.
You are smart enough to realise that percentage numbers are different based on the different number of foreigners in the area. so, if area A had 100 of I1a and area B likewise, if R1a entered areas A and B but, in A went 300 and in B went 500, then the percentage of I1a in area A is greater then in area B
So, they would not be single digit numbers for any region in the western balkans if you remove R1a and i2a-din
As an example, by using Maciano's y-dna country numbers for albania and removing the R1a and I2a
the following percentages occur once reconfigured
I1 - 3
I2b = 2
R1b = 21
G = 3
J2 = 25.5
J1 = 3
E1b1b = 37.5
T = 2
true if its only 1 sub-clade of I1a ( I1) exists
thats what we are discussing, for your theory to work , another Hg had to be in the western balkans. I am trying to figure out if I1a is that HG
Yes, principally Ostrogothic, at least that's my best guess.
I ran some numbers from Y-dna country in regards to eliminating the R1a and I2a and got these numbers for I1a ( I1) ...rounded to nearest half %Good point, I1 may be higher than we might expect, but it's not impossible that they could have expanded due to cultural selection. As usual, Y-DNA magnifies the effect of migration.
That looks about like what I would expect, although E1b may also have a bit of a founder effect itself... my guess is that R1b, J2, and E1b would have been dominant together, with G2a an interesting Neolithic marker and I1 mostly Germanic. That "I2b" is probably dominated by I2a2a2-Cont3, which I have already brought up.
But it isn't "so different"... the large majority of I2a in Eastern Europe as a whole is I2a-Din.
It cannot be Proto-Slavic if it wasn't PIE to start with.
So I still think that I2a2 was in Europe before the Indo-Europeans.
The fact that the two closest clades to I2a-Din both have their centers of diversity in the British Isles, and the fact that outlier clades of I2a, like I2a1*-Rassette and I2a1*-F are very European and even Western European, lends poorly to this theory.
What Maciamo and Knovas et al. seem to be completely ignoring is the age of I2a-Din as a subclade. We don't know where its ancestral Daddy roamed. But we do know that the specific I2a-Din subclade did not begin to exist until ca. 300 BCE.
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