How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  • Total voters
    233
Well if you search in history is said by a Greek historian that Dacians and Sarmatians had same language.
Now,there is also a Polish folk tradition that Polish nobility was coming from Sarmatians.
What we are seeing is that is plenty of R1b-L23 in Romania and Poland,from countries that have more Slavic-like genetics.
There is also R1b-L23 in Albanian,Armenia so is clear these people brought a Satem IE language.
So here is the theory:
I2-din North and South are something like Proto-Slavs,or so,who were here from lots of time.
R1b-L23 people came and conquered the area,including the agricultural practicing people from today Albania.
After,it was an expansion of Baltic speakers,that spreads R1b-Z280 and this is how current Slavic languages were born,from Baltic language.
It is more than clear that Baltic people conquered and imposed their language to Slavic people,since all Slavic people are bearing a little N1C1 and all have some percentage of R1a-Z280 also they are having I1. Deep clade analysis would be interested to be seen.
These Baltic speakers were strong people,they are still strongest in the world,as genetics and they were also great warriors.
I think this is how the so called "Slavic expansion" took place,which spread R1A-Z280 mostly.
It was enough for people South of Danube to have leaders from this Balto-Slavic speakers to get their language changed to more a Baltic version.
There are common words,lots of them,between Romanian and South Slavic,that are not found in Eastern or Western Slavic languages,neither in Albanian,neither in Italian.
Guess from where those words are?
If those words would have been of Sarmatian or Dacian origins,than it would should also have been in Albanian.
It those words would have been of Latin origins,than it should have been present in Romance or Latin.
So those are words from Proto-Slavs (or whatever those I2-dinaric people were) language,that was not kept,but only words from it are kept.
I called them proto-Slavs because Hutsuls are identical to Romanians as genetics,folk customs but speaks some kind of Ukrainian dialect.
 
Ike said:
OK, this sounds stupid.



Considering similarities between Albanian and Armenian, for example:
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ing_linguistic_similarities_Albanian-Armenian
Click to expand...

I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance. You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you. Ms. Marika on her second page states "Though not an expert of Historical and Comparative Indo-European linguistics myself" and that is how far I read that link. You dismiss the video of a linguist that deals with Indo-European languages for an amateur. Get real!

That Armenian shares features with Greek, Albanian and other Indo-Europeans languages is understood. It is even placed on the Balkan branch of Indo-European languages, and along with Greek and Phrygian are placed on the Eastern branch, while Albanian is placed on the Western branch as the only survivor of the paleo Balkan languages. But when you try to show such example as evidence that Albanian language migrated from Caucasus, be mindful because Greek is closer to Armenian.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Now,there is also a Polish folk tradition that Polish nobility was coming from Sarmatians.
What we are seeing is that is plenty of R1b-L23 in Romania and Poland,from countries that have more Slavic-like genetics.
There is also R1b-L23 in Albanian,Armenia so is clear these people brought a Satem IE language.
Click to expand...

This tradition doesn't say anything specifically about nobility, but about Poles in general.

Polish nobility has had roughly the same genetic structure as Polish population as a whole. Over 50% of R1a.

Here you can find Y-DNA haplogroups of Polish nobility from the region of Mazovia:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/MasovianNob/default.aspx?section=yresults

I calculated this on 12.06.2014 (it is possible that they added some new samples since then, I have not checked):

R1a - 77 (52,74%)
R1b - 23 (15,75%)
I2a - 13 (8,91%)
I2b - 1 (0,69%)
I1a - 8 (5,48%)
J2b2a - 7 (4,79%)
C3b - 5 (3,42%)
E1b1b1a2 - 4 (2,74%)
G2a - 3 (2,05%)
R2 - 2 (1,37%)
N1c1a - 2 (1,37%)
Q - 1 (0,69%)

Here more detailed information on subclades (sample size 146 nobles):

R1a, 77 nobles:

R1a1a1b1a* (Z282+ M458- Z280- Z284-) ---------------- 1
R1a1a1b1a1* (M458+ L260- L1029-) ---------------- 5
R1a1a1b1a1a (M458+ L260+) ---------------- 19
R1a1a1b1a1b (M458+ Z2953+ L1029-) ---------------- 8
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (M458+ Z2953+ L1029+) ---------------- 12
R1a1a1b1a2* (Z280+ CTS1211- Z92-) ---------------- 2
R1a1a1b1a2a (Z280+ Z92+) ---------------- 7
R1a1a1b1a2b3* (Z280+ CTS3402+) ---------------- 16
R1a1a1b1a2b3a (Z280+ CTS3402+ L365+) ---------------- 1
R1a1a1b1a2b3b (Z280+ CTS1211+ L366+) ---------------- 5
R1a1a1b1a2b3c (Z280+ CTS1211+ L1280+) ---------------- 1

R1b, 23 nobles:

R1b1a2 (M269+) Unassigned (NEED SNP test) ---------------- 8
R1b1a2a1a1a (L11+ U106+) and subclades ---------------- 2
R1b1a2a1a1b3 (L11+ P312+ U152+) and subclades ---------------- 6
R1b1a2a1a1b4 (L11+ P312+ L21+) and subclades ---------------- 4
R1b1a2a2 (Z2103+ L11-) and subclades ---------------- 1
R1b1a2a2 (Z2103+ L11-) PREDICTED (SNP test needed) ---------------- 2

I2a, 13 nobles:

I2a2 (M423+ L621+) 'Northern' cluster ---------------- 6
I2a2 (M423+ L621+) 'Southern' cluster ---------------- 6
I2a2 (M423+ L621+) unknown cluster ---------------- 1

I2b, 1 noble:

I2b1 (M223+) ---------------- 1

I1a, 8 nobles:

I1a (DF29+) (other SNPs not tested) ---------------- 4
I1a1* (Z2336+) 'Polish' cluster ---------------- 3
I1a1b (Z2336+ L22+) 'Northern Cluster' ---------------- 1

J2b, 7 nobles:

J2b2a (M241+, L283+) ---------------- 7

C3, 5 nobles (Baczewscy family from Bacze Mokre and Sasinowscy family from Krajewo Stare and Rosochate):

C3b (M217+ L1373+ F1756+) ---------------- 5

E1b, 4 nobles:

E1b1b1a2 (V13+) ---------------- 4

G2a, 3 nobles:

G2a (P15+) ---------------- 3

R2, 2 nobles:

R2 (M479+) and subclades ---------------- 2

N1c, 2 nobles:

N1c1a (M178+) ---------------- 2

Q, 1 noble:

Q ---------------- 1

============================================

And here you have Y-DNA haplogroups of nobility from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/WXL_Nobility/default.aspx?section=yresults

The last time I checked it carefully was also on 12.06.2014.
 
Baczewscy and Sasinowscy (C3b) could be descendants of Tatar or Mongol refugees who were promoted to noble status. However, for example Chazbijewicze - a family of Lipka Tatars promoted to nobility status in Poland-Lithuania - have haplogroup R1b1a1 (R-M73). Here you can listen to Selim, one of members of this family (R1b-M73 wasn't tested on him, but on another guy from this family):


Lipka Tatars were political refugees who escaped to Poland-Lithuania during civil wars within the Golden Horde.

Poland-Lithuania and Teutonic Order provided assistance to one of opposing Tatar-Mongol factions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Vorskla_River

The first leader of Lipka Tatars who settled in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was Tokhtamysh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokhtamysh
 
Skerdilaidas said:
I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance. You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you. Ms. Marika on her second page states "Though not an expert of Historical and Comparative Indo-European linguistics myself" and that is how far I read that link. You dismiss the video of a linguist that deals with Indo-European languages for an amateur. Get real!

That Armenian shares features with Greek, Albanian and other Indo-Europeans languages is understood. It is even placed on the Balkan branch of Indo-European languages, and along with Greek and Phrygian are placed on the Eastern branch, while Albanian is placed on the Western branch as the only survivor of the paleo Balkan languages. But when you try to show such example as evidence that Albanian language migrated from Caucasus, be mindful because Greek is closer to Armenian.
Click to expand...

to link I2a " illyrian" or even the name Illyrian , with anything to do with anything Albanian is a major error ..............IF we are to link I2a with anything Illyrian, it would be with the Bosnians.
 
to link " illyrian" or even the name Illyrian , with anything to do with anything Albanian is a major error
Click to expand...

Why so ???

Albanians are not descendants of all Illyrians, but they can be descendants of one of Illyrian-speaking tribes.
 
Tomenable said:
T
The oldest I1 (and the only one from Stone Ages) comes from that archaeological site of the LBKT culture:

R1a_R1b_Russia.png


Eupedia says:



So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.
Click to expand...

The markers as per the map shows to me the original "Illyrian" markers...........no E or J found
 
Tomenable said:
Why so ???

Albanians are definitely not descendants of all Illyrians, but they can be descendants of one of Illyrian-speaking tribes.
Click to expand...

which tribe,? the one the fled from the other illyrian tribes in the north and merged with Epirote and Macedonian tribes in northern Albania............yes they did become a dominate tribe but it was mostly a coastal tribe.

My take is Albanian where resettled in modern Albania by the Romans.......these Albanians fled from scythian and Samaritan pressure in the southern Carpathian mountains. basically sitting north of the dacians.
There is NO evidence in any Roman historian prior to 150AD of any Albanians in Albania...............the Romans took this area in 196BC from the Macedonians
 
Sile said:
which tribe,? the one the fled from the other illyrian tribes in the north and merged with Epirote and Macedonian tribes in northern Albania............yes they did become a dominate tribe but it was mostly a coastal tribe.

My take is Albanian where resettled in modern Albania by the Romans.......these Albanians fled from scythian and Samaritan pressure in the southern Carpathian mountains. basically sitting north of the dacians.
There is NO evidence in any Roman historian prior to 150AD of any Albanians in Albania...............the Romans took this area in 196BC from the Macedonians
Click to expand...
I personally believe that they are a Thracian tribe of some sort. Genetics seem to point to this. Either that or they are related to the Thracians in some way.
 
I find (for now) easier to imagine Slavic and Baltic languages emerged from a common satem language spoken in the western steppes by a population dominated numerically by Y-R1a bearers, imponing themselves upon a Y-N1 dominated population near the Baltic, and upon a post-Tripolje population, variated but rich of Y-I2a1a Din in N-W Ukraina (close to the North Carpathians), themselves heirs of older highlands old forms of Y-I2a1a stayed there a long time as HGs on the mergins of the Neolithic people -
I wait some deep clades of Y-I2a1a of Dalmatia to be sure of the way taken by the ancestors of these later ones in Yugoslavia: only "slavic" clades or more local and older ones?
 
Skerdilaidas said:
I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance.
Click to expand...

No, dude. What you had said is utterly stupid. As simple as that.

You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you. Ms. Marika on her second page states "Though not an expert of Historical and Comparative Indo-European linguistics myself" and that is how far I read that link.
Click to expand...
Multiple LOLs. You probably don't even know what that means.

You dismiss the video of a linguist that deals with Indo-European languages for an amateur. Get real!
Click to expand...
I didn't even watch that video. You first sentence in that post is so low on intelligence, that it discouraged me to read that paragraph further.

That Armenian shares features with Greek, Albanian and other Indo-Europeans languages is understood.
Click to expand...

So, now it's understood ?!?!?!??! What the hell was this then?

Skerdilaidas said:
Also, since you are playing "the linguist" do show the sources of the study that confirm the similarities of the Gheg words with old Armenian you have provided.
Click to expand...

Smells like троллинг.
 
Melancon said:
I personally believe that they are a Thracian tribe of some sort. Genetics seem to point to this. Either that or they are related to the Thracians in some way.
Click to expand...

One new meticulously scientific research suggests that Albanian is the closest to Indo-Iranian languages (for example Indo-Iranian languages are Baluchi, Persian, etc. and Kashmiri, Hindi, etc).

It is interesting that Armenian is something further in comparison to the Indo-Iranian in terms of connections with Albanian.

If it is true Albanian could formed somewhere in today Caucasus region, South Russia, Eastern Anatolia or maybe Northern Iran or further east but we will see next scientific studies.

According this (if it is true), it is probably that carriers of R1b-ht35, J2 and maybe R1a haplogroups are creators original Albanian language (E-V13 is probably much later entered in Albanian substrate).

Dacian, Thracian, Balto-Slavic and Latin are much later influences, and they are "corrupted" original Albanian.
 
You know,if Slavic speaking people bearing I2-din South have migrated to ex-Yugo,how come I2-din South is found at high percentages in Serbians,Montenegrins,Bosnians,Croatians and is not found even in significant percentages to other people?
Also,why I2-din South is found in ex-Yugo people,but not in Bulgarians,neither in Greeks?
If it supposed that Bulgarians migrated in same time with ex-Yugos,how come this difference?
It is quite not probable that a massive migration of people took place,but the place from where they left do not have any I2-din South left,neither they left any I2-din South on the migration route they went.
Bulgarians are having I2-din North,same about the I2-din from Greece,so rather seems these I2-din North bearers moved from North of Danube to South of Danube.
So I think I2-din South rather formed in Balkan mountains.
As for I2-din North,which is present at Bulgarians and Greeks,how it got there,this would be a different discussion.
 
mihaitzateo:So I think I2-din South rather formed in Balkan mountains.
As for I2-din North,which is present at Bulgarians and Greeks,how it got there,this would be a different discussion.

...din North and din South is not valid designation anymore.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
 
gyms said:
mihaitzateo:So I think I2-din South rather formed in Balkan mountains.
As for I2-din North,which is present at Bulgarians and Greeks,how it got there,this would be a different discussion.

...din North and din South is not valid designation anymore.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
Click to expand...
Oh lol,really?
I2-din North and I2-din South are just known now under different names,but the genetic reality,is same.
Romanians,Ukrainians,Poles,Bulgarians,Greeks have a kind of I2-din,while Croats,Bosnians,Serbians,Montenegrins have a different kind of I2-din.
The maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din North is in Romania,maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din South have the maximum in Bosnia.
This genetic reality raises a lot of question marks about the known "Slavic migration".
While in the case of Bulgaria,it stands as true,Slavs came from North,settled in Bulgaria,it does not stands as true in the case of Serbians,Bosnians,Croats and Montenegrins.
Those Slavs who moved to ex-Yugo should have carried different paternal lines than what it was previously known as I2-din South.
I am curios what kind of I2-din is present in Austria and Hungary.
I suppose that in Hungary there is I2-din North,while in Austria,mostly I2-din South,because lots of ex-Yugos were encouraged to move to Austria,from Serbia,Croatia etc,to escape Ottoman rule(what is written in Italic I am not sure of it,remember that I have read somewhere about it,but could not find it anymore).
 
mihaitzateo said:
Oh lol,really?
I2-din North and I2-din South are just known now under different names,but the genetic reality,is same.
Romanians,Ukrainians,Poles,Bulgarians,Greeks have a kind of I2-din,while Croats,Bosnians,Serbians,Montenegrins have a different kind of I2-din.
The maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din North is in Romania,maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din South have the maximum in Bosnia.
This genetic reality raises a lot of question marks about the known "Slavic migration".










While in the case of Bulgaria,it stands as true,Slavs came from North,settled in Bulgaria,it does not stands as true in the case of Serbians,Bosnians,Croats and Montenegrins.
Those Slavs who moved to ex-Yugo should have carried different paternal lines than what it was previously known as I2-din South.
I am curios what kind of I2-din is present in Austria and Hungary.
I suppose that in Hungary there is I2-din North,while in Austria,mostly I2-din South,because lots of ex-Yugos were encouraged to move to Austria,from Serbia,Croatia etc,to escape Ottoman rule(what is written in Italic I am not sure of it,remember that I have read somewhere about it,but could not find it anymore).
Click to expand...
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/publi...lpGen_Genealogy/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/romania/about/results
 
Garrick said:
One new meticulously scientific research suggests that Albanian is the closest to Indo-Iranian languages (for example Indo-Iranian languages are Baluchi, Persian, etc. and Kashmiri, Hindi, etc).

It is interesting that Armenian is something further in comparison to the Indo-Iranian in terms of connections with Albanian.

If it is true Albanian could formed somewhere in today Caucasus region, South Russia, Eastern Anatolia or maybe Northern Iran or further east but we will see next scientific studies.

According this (if it is true), it is probably that carriers of R1b-ht35, J2 and maybe R1a haplogroups are creators original Albanian language (E-V13 is probably much later entered in Albanian substrate).

Dacian, Thracian, Balto-Slavic and Latin are much later influences, and they are "corrupted" original Albanian.
Click to expand...
Lol, can you post this "new meticulously scientific research" so we can all have a look at them, and see what you are blabbering about?
 
Sile said:
to link I2a " illyrian" or even the name Illyrian , with anything to do with anything Albanian is a major error ..............IF we are to link I2a with anything Illyrian, it would be with the Bosnians.
Click to expand...
Where have I suggested that I2a is Illyrian, or are you just bored and felt the need to quote me? "even the name Illyrian, with anything to do with Albanians is a major error" go tell that to countless serious linguists and historians, my amateur friend.
 
Skerdilaidas said:
Lol, can you post this "new meticulously scientific research" so we can all have a look at them, and see what you are blabbering about?
Click to expand...

You can read more. This is research of scientists from New Zealand, scientists used computational methods. I will open new thread when I have time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top