How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Shetop]

How could Slavs be I2a1b , they are from Pripyat valey and there is over 60% of R1a ( one of the strongest ) , and there was no newcoming nations after Slav movement
Check Klyosov

Your statement isn't correct but I'll skip that and ask you - where from is I2a1b? And what is the frequency of different haplogroups in that region today?

Bottom line is - so many former Iranian speakers in different parts of Eastern Europe today and all of them, no matter where they were, lost their language!? I would say that it is impossible.

 

[Goga]

From the Sarmatians!

Iranic tribes were the real power around the Black Sea and North of the Balkans at that time !

I took this from page 50 from this book:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=yVw...yges chester&hl=nl&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Bodin]

I voted for Other.
I think that I2a-Dinarics got to Balkan as Ostrogoths. This would also explain presence of I2* in Georgia, Armenia and Turkey as those would be people who did not complete their voyage to Balkan and NW Italy. TMRCA for Dinarics would be older as it probably belonged to clan chiefs while TMRCA for Ia*s would be younger branches that remained behind.
Second option would be Gepids who lived little bit north of Balkan and have joined Huns later on. This aliance with Huns allowed them to spread into areas where I2a-Ds are found today.
This option may not be liked by many and is based on observation that there is not much (if any) genetic footprint left by Huns or Magyars in Europe which lead me to believe that people in old times might have commited infanticide against Asian babies while Gepid's babies lived on.

I do not think Dinarics lived in Balkan during Roman Empire as their dna were not found in graves of Roman soldiers from Illyria (graves from Wales seem to indicate hg E as Illyrian).
They are too young for Paleolithic continuity and even if they were not again they were not part of Roman armies so they would have not lived in Balkan.

I think that early Indo-Europeans were more of R1a and R1b folks.
I do not think we were Sea people as we don't have much of seafaring experience. During medivial times Bosnian Kingdom waged wars against both Raguscan and Venetian and took most of land in east Adriatic but those Bosnians had no navy at all.

There is very little R1a in parts of Balkan for it to be mainly Slavic migration.
Don't know much about Sarmatians to make any comments.

Have you consider Sarmathian origins ? Because Gepids had only Semberia and Srem on Balkans .

 

[Bodin]

I see a linguistic problem there as well. Why would Germanic tribes adopt a Slavic language upon settling in the Balkans? It seems unlikely.

Why would Bulgarians - turkoIranic nation accepted Slavic languague ?

 

[Bodin]

Your statement isn't correct but I'll skip that and ask you - where from is I2a1b? And what is the frequency of different haplogroups in that region today?

Bottom line is - so many former Iranian speakers in different parts of Eastern Europe today and all of them, no matter where they were, lost their language!? I would say that it is impossible.

Why would it be imposible ? If they were all subdued by Huns and they all had a lot of Slavic speacking subjects - limigantes

 

[Yetos]

Well personally I might remind you all that Iapetoc sugested that I2a is Thracian who expand to expand to Ucraine even to North of Caucas, (massageate) and return,

Iapetoc believe that Goths primary land was Dacia and from there moved to Scan and return some of them mainly the vikings in Ucraine,

considering the runic alphabet we find almost none in Balkan penisnsula,
that means that runic must be brought by another culture,

now we all know that elves move west, as also the druids,
by Greek tragedy we learn that elven (elafos) worshippers center was Crimaia
so by what understand N Thracians moved west to Germany and Scan while their lands passed to slavic,
remember that satemization is early in south Balkans,

for me the I2a is a double added,
1 is after old thracian before the moves, part of it went east like massagetae maybe even to samara
there took satemization of language and return
2 a quite big % that added at slavic movements to south of Istrios (Donau)

PS I had read the other days about a nation called Hrpt an avaric nation, if someone has info about that plz share,

PS2 has anyone idea where the queen tomaris kingdom was?

 

[sparkey]

Yetos,

It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos,

It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.

sorry I ment N = Norh S = South,

North thracians = getae = goths
South thracians = the known thracians (bulgaria Serbia Fyrom parts of Bosna and parts of Greece and Turkey,)

the story goes like this North Thracians Dacians or Getae moved from area to North and return via Volga river to ucraine,
a part of them moved east to sammara and return as Slavic population with a satemized IE language like the Iranian populations,
the rest Gothic moved west as ostrogoth vissigoth etc

meaning that I2 goth people moved west leaving area to I2 south slavic wich added to the non movable I2a of the mountains

 

[razor]

Yetos,

It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.

As a matter of fact. I had been musing some such similar possibility prior to becoming acquainted with the Nordtvedt dates. Here are some facts (the question is: would this be enough, and would it be compatible with other data?)
(1) An ancient "Thrakoid" presence in Ukrainian territory is indubitable. We have the remnants of Thracian-type hydronyms (very few but enough) stretching north of the Carpathians as far as the border between forest-steppe and forest, where they abut on Baltic ones)
(2) The BCE archaeological cultures which used to be attributed to proto-Slavs, esp. the Bilohrudivska culture and the "Scythian-farmer" culture could easily have been Thrakoid. Interestingly, there are no certainly Iranic topo/hydronyms west of the Dnipro, and linguists have admitted that the dan- dana- root could also be Thracian.
(3) We know (both from archaeology and from Strabo) that in the early 3rd c. BCE there was a large scale migration of "Scythians" from the area west of the Dnipro into the Dobrudja (subsequently known as "Scythia Minor"). Some of these were certainly Iranic or Iranized royalty/aristocrats. But if (1) and (2) is correct, then the bulk would have been a Thrakoid population, which afterwards blended in with the Getans south of the Danube, so much so that by the time of Ovid, he found no genuine Scythians there...
(4) Since we know of no historical countermoves from the south, we would have to assume that enough people remained behind (but then why so few Thrakoid top/hydronyms?) or that there was a big "Slavic" reflux from the Danube in the 7th/8th cs. which would explain the big I2a-Din numbers today.
Right now, I still prefer the Nordvedt/Verenic scenario.

 

[sparkey]

Right now, I still prefer the Nordvedt/Verenic scenario.

Ditto; but as you outline, Yetos' proposal isn't impossible, and it's fairly clear what will help establish it. Basically, we need old branches of I2a-Din (ancient or modern samples; ancient preferred) to be found in former Thrace.

 

[MOESAN]

not a reply but a question
was it said about the age of the Y-I2a2 of the carpathians mountains of Romania and surroundings - because human settlements are old there, during the LGM and before, and are seldom or inexistant when we speak about Dinaric and Dalmatia regions - and the nearest regions (which knows the Thrakians) has allways been the center of exchanges Westward and Eastward, a very good place for cultural fusions and subsequent expansion (proto-Indo-Eur. and differenciation Kentum-Satem???)

 

[MOESAN]

just a mottley of facts and believings
- For I know paleolithic or early post-ice-age settlements are very very seldom in the Dinaric Alps (West Balkans), even in Greece and the remnant of the Balkans - there would be some ones in the Eastern parts of the Carpathes and more in Hungary or Czechoslovakia -
- even if it has to be taken with caution the dinaric phénotype is very common today in Hercegovina and in Yougoslavia as a whole AND TOO in the Carpathian Mountains of Romania - what 's more, dinaric types are present (even if less) in all the Carpathian Chain until South Poland, Slovakia, AND TOO in Western Ukraina all regions where Y-I2a1b-din is concerned -
- it's not so ridiculous to imagine that the great Cucuteni-Tripolje period could have helped to some exchanges of population between Northern Greece and Ukraina (and further North-East when one sees to the Tripolje influence) - I can easily imagine that the rising and success of this culture (proto-I-E or not) had an effect on demography and could have multipied the population there favoring the diversity of I2a1b on more thant 1000 years (?) -
- for I believe previous Slavs was as previous Scythes Y-R1a as a majority - what is reliable is that they can have mixed with this population of Southern-Western Ukraina where was found a lot of Y-I2a1b-din and some others (Y-J2? Y-G2?)- it's not sure at all the Slavs was the first I-Eans there; a lot passed before them -
- so Y-I2a1b could have been carried westward by different tribes, Illyrians and others before Slavs, and after that slavized "Ukrainians" bringing Y-I2a1 but also along with some more Y-R1a - but even some of the Y-R1a could have been brought in the Western Balkans before the Slavs - it's discuted (always the problem of diversity of HGs and HTs) -
- the argument of absolute numbers has some worth : but even if the bulk of I2a1b-din is not native of the Western Balkans, it doesn't signify they arrived ONLY with Slavs and so late
- concerning the Albanians, some linguists said that the most of the latin loan words in their language showed a phonetic evolution typical or Eastern Balkans (as the latinized Romanians?) - their dinaric phenotypes tendancy could be based on females heritage (and yet: Kosovars had less 'alpine' types' and more 'dinaric' types but show also a dolichocephalic influence heavier than the Tosques of South Albania do ) -
- I hold that there were a lot of movements in the Balkans on every side, and that today Albanians are a mix of "autochtones" and "aliens" : very inextricable- their original language is drown by foreign loan words of every kind if I rely on my readings - but concerning the geographical origin of the speakers of previous albanian I see them further East and without an evident link with the Illyrians -

to come back to Y-I2a1b-din its recent demographic boom could have been between Carpathes and Ukraina, born by a upstream Y-I2a1 of Carpathian or Central-Europe origin more than one of the Dinaric Alps - the historical events can easily explain that a successful branch that took profit from several cultures, pre-I-E and I-E, could have populated Western Balkans
at the time of the slavic invasions BUT also before them in more than a wave - present genetics data can hardly say more I think -

 

[sparkey]

- it's not so ridiculous to imagine that the great Cucuteni-Tripolje period could have helped to some exchanges of population between Northern Greece and Ukraina (and further North-East when one sees to the Tripolje influence) - I can easily imagine that the rising and success of this culture (proto-I-E or not) had an effect on demography and could have multipied the population there favoring the diversity of I2a1b on more thant 1000 years (?) -

I still think that Cucuteni-Tripolye is a slight mismatch, as I explain here. At least, the diversification of I2a1b1a appears to have happened later (other I2a1b's are native to Northwestern Europe and are not really being considered here).

- for I believe previous Slavs was as previous Scythes Y-R1a as a majority - what is reliable is that they can have mixed with this population of Southern-Western Ukraina where was found a lot of Y-I2a1b-din and some others (Y-J2? Y-G2?)- it's not sure at all the Slavs was the first I-Eans there; a lot passed before them -

I follow you here, but with a question: When do you think that proto-Slavic differentiated from proto-Balto-Slavic? Did it really happen long enough ago as to have happened before I2a-Din became an important part of the population's haplogroups? Because if not, then it's appropriate to assume that there was never such universal R1a dominance in the Slavs, just in the proto-Balto-Slavs, who form only a component of the ancestry of the Slavs.

- so Y-I2a1b could have been carried westward by different tribes, Illyrians and others before Slavs, and after that slavized "Ukrainians" bringing Y-I2a1 but also along with some more Y-R1a - but even some of the Y-R1a could have been brought in the Western Balkans before the Slavs - it's discuted (always the problem of diversity of HGs and HTs) -
- the argument of absolute numbers has some worth : but even if the bulk of I2a1b-din is not native of the Western Balkans, it doesn't signify they arrived ONLY with Slavs and so late

Please be more specific. Are you saying that you find the S cluster to be Slavic but the N cluster to be non-Slavic? If so, then why is the N cluster so omnipresent among the North Slavs? If it's the other way around, then why is S so much younger? I have trouble fitting what we know about the diversity patterns of I2a-Din into a multi-ethnicity pooling point model.

to come back to Y-I2a1b-din its recent demographic boom could have been between Carpathes and Ukraina, born by a upstream Y-I2a1 of Carpathian or Central-Europe origin more than one of the Dinaric Alps - the historical events can easily explain that a successful branch that took profit from several cultures, pre-I-E and I-E, could have populated Western Balkans
at the time of the slavic invasions BUT also before them in more than a wave - present genetics data can hardly say more I think -

Actually, other than the part about it likely being from many waves (I still suspect that the Slavic migrations was the only important wave), I basically agree with this. I think Central Europe is more likely than Carpathian due to the distribution of the rest of I2a1b.

 

[zanipolo]

I believe this I21ab to be from Noricum area and moved south, part of both the late Bronze Age Laugen-Melaun culture and Iron Age Fritzens-Sanzeno culture cultures.

 

[how yes no 2]

So there are several threads, all recently active, where the focus of the conversation has turned to (often passionate) discussions about how I2a1b1a-Din, the most common Haplogroup I subclade in the Balkans, got to the Balkans. But we seem far from reaching consensus on this forum, so here's a poll to at least put our finger to the wind regarding the direction this forum is leaning.

I've included as options several different possibilities I've read:

Paleolithic continuity: I2a-Din has been in the Balkans since the Paleolithic, and present distribution outside of the Balkans is the result of migrations out of it. There is direct geographic continuity for this clade from Gravettian culture and/or the Balkans Ice Age refuge. Proponents point out the age of Haplogroup I and the frequency distribution of I2a-Din. I've read Maciamo articulate this view, but I'm not sure if he still holds it.

The Early Indo-Europeans: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Indo-European migrations. It was part of the "original" collection of Y-DNA of Indo-Europeans. Proponents point out that everywhere that Haplogroup I is dominant nowadays speaks an IE language. How yes no was fond of this theory for a while.

Sea Peoples: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by seafaring groups not otherwise mentioned in this poll. The migration happened before history or early in history. Proponents point to the frequency distribution and the lack of historical verification for later migrations. How yes no explored this idea, and recently Pyrub has advocated it.

The Sarmatians: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Sarmatians. Proponents of this view cite the STR dating estimate for the clade, the apparent Asian spillover of it, and the historical attestation to Sarmatians (but not Slavs) in the Balkans. Bodin has been the most vocal advocate of this theory here.

The Slavs: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by expanding Slavs in the 1st millennium CE. Proponents cite the age of the clade, expert STR diversity analysis by people like Nordtvedt and Verenich, and dispute that history doesn't verify the Slavic expansions. I have supported this view, as have a few other posters.

If you believe that multiple expansions resulted in the current I2a-Din distribution in the Balkans, indicate which you feel brought most or had the greatest impact. If you feel that the data is deficient, make your best educated guess.

let me explain why sea people are listed there


all we know is this map:

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf

I2a-Din is estimated to spread from Poland towards Ukraine, Russia and Balkan...
Balkan was settled with movement of Serbs and Croats.... and I2a-Din being common factor for all south Slavs that distinguish them from surrounding while other haplogroups widely differ is clearly speaking that much of it came with south Slavs, probably with Serbs and Croats.... there are some historical data that list tribes with names such as Serbs and Croats among Sarmatians.....


in my opinion, I2a-Din was already in Danube basin before Roman spread to north...
Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs pushed out of Danube basin towards their relatives Liakhs on north by Vlakhs (Romans)....

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

Lyakhs are no other than Lechs or Poles of today...

this Danubian Slavs were based on description of their location given in russian primary chronicle in fact same people as Celtic Scordisci...

Morava is Celtic river name, and it exist in Serbia where Scordisci lived and in Czech republic which is roughly area where Danubian Slavs settled... Serb related toponyms we find in west part of Czech republic
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbská_Kamenice and in west part of neigbouring Bavaria as Sorviodurum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing) and small nation of Sorbs (who call themselves Serbya on northwest of Chezh republic)

worth noting is that Sorviodurum was one of the town of Raetia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia and that alternative name of Serbs was Rascians

Rascians (Serbian: Raci or Раци, also Rascijani or Расцијани; Hungarian: Rác, (pl.) Rácok; German: Ratzen, Raize, (pl.) Raizen; also Ratzians, Rasciani and Natio Rasciana) was a name used to designate Serbs, or sometimes, in a wider perspective, all South Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascians

I do not say that Serbs were Raetians... I think they were partly living in Raetia (e.g. in Sorviodurum) and we know that

At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia".

Vindelici... = white

for Serbs we know that they came to Balkan from land of Boiki where they were (same as Croats) called "white"
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...do imperio&hl=nl&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

worth noting is that white is designation for west, e.g. Belarus = bela (white) + Rus = white Russians = west Russians

now why Scordisci....
because they lived in Danube basin prior to Roman conquest... note both the Danube and Morava river being in their area....

note that from area of Scordisci, a tribe named Serdi entered Thrace and was Thracanized...
in fact in my opinion Serdi and Scordisci are just Celtic and Thracian versions of same tribal name...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi


I believe Scordisci were I2a-Din, and that their ancestors were Sherdana sea peoples...let me explain...


Shar mountain (Shar Dagh in turkish) on border of FYR Macedonia and break away Serbia province of Kosovo...

In Antiquity, the mountains were known as Scardus, Scodrus, or Scordus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šar_Mountains

Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus^[4] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyriaand Paionia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Scordisci have tribal name preserved in Scordus mountain, which is Shar Dagh in turkish...

I argue that Scordisci were further in past known as Sherdana sea peoples and were I2a-Din
why I argue that?

Sherdana who came from north and via seas (Black sea according to my interpretation of what is written about order of conquest of sea peoples - for more details see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples) settled in their conquest the area that is matching exactly the areas where Kurds live now.... and Kurds carry I2a-Din that by all means must have originated in Europe

Kurdi is name derived from Sherdana, same as Scord on Balkan, which with Celtic ending gave Scordisci and with Thracian ending gave Serdi...

I2a-Din is not spread only along Balkan, among Kurds, and in west Slavs... in fact, it is also widely spread in Ukraine and south Russia...this can indeed perhaps be related to Sarmatians.....

if you look at Nordvedt map, from Poland I2a-Din has spread in tri directions: northeast, east and southeast...
except south and west Balkan which was settled by I2a-Din only with early Slavs, this is Danube basin and area on north and east shores of Black sea.... and according to my projections this is where Sherdana started conquest.... from Danube basin and north shores of Black sea....

note that cultures and languages of tribes change at much faster pace than genetics.... but tribal names are often following genetics...

 

[how yes no 2]

maybe we should first focus on I2a-Din- south as it is younger and less wide spread.... so it should give us better clue of more recent history of I2a-Din that is present on Balkan


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup,I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

what we see besides Balkan, is settlement around Krakov in south Poland, which is most likely about white Croatia, we see line from Leipzig via Bohemia towards Vienna, which is likely about white Serbia, we see area in north Poland which corresponds to location of Germanic Scirii in times 1AD-200AD

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_3837.html

note that Germanic Scirii are often coupled with Germanic Hirri, in same way as Serbs and Croats are coupled...we also see a line that goes from Hamburg, via Hanover to Frankfurt and Zurich, which is hard to explain....perhaps Helvetii...


it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)

Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....

I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...

I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....


Scordisci fits with Russian primary chronicle speaking of Serbs among Danubian Slavs who were pushed out to north by Vlakhs (Romans)... Russian primary chronicle records collective memory of past, but those memories would probably skip language transitions, leaving possibility that those so called Danubian Slavs were not yet Slavic speaking at the time they lived around Danube... note that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians and thus must have incorporated significant E-V13 and also some of J haplogroups... that would explain why spread of E-V13 is relatively homogenous in Serb settled areas and much higher than in Croats ...

Scordisci just lived and moved along Danube basin... so when pushed from Serbia they would naturally end up in Bohemia which is where they probably also originally came from... end Bohemia is land Boiki (that neighbours Frankia on west and white Cratia on east) from where white (west) Serbs came to Balkan to make Serbs of today....

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...do imperio&hl=nl&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

note that historic record states Serbs come to Balkan from land of Boiki where they have also originally dwellt... such statement implies there was no continuity, it implies they originally dwellt in Boiki than spread elsewhere, returned to it, and only than came to Balkan...

note that according to some sources molecular diversity of I2a-Din seems to be much higher in Serb settled areas, Bohemia, and Ukraine than e.g. in Croatia indicating much earlier presence in these regions... this if correct, excludes I2a-Din being Illyrian genetics and points out that expansion of I2a-Din to Croatia happened only with Slavs, while I2a-Din in Serbia was also present before Slavs... thus, Scordisci...

 

[zanipolo]

maybe we should first focus on I2a-Din- south as it is younger and less wide spread.... so it should give us better clue of more recent history of I2a-Din that is present on Balkan

View attachment 5435
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup,I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

what we see besides Balkan, is settlement around Krakov in south Poland, which is most likely about white Croatia, we see line from Leipzig via Bohemia towards Vienna, which is likely about white Serbia, we see area in north Poland which corresponds to location of Germanic Scirii in times 1AD-200AD

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_3837.html

note that Germanic Scirii are often coupled with Germanic Hirri, in same way as Serbs and Croats are coupled...we also see a line that goes from Hamburg, via Hanover to Frankfurt and Zurich, which is hard to explain....perhaps Helvetii...


it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)

Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....

I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...

I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....


Scordisci fits with Russian primary chronicle speaking of Serbs among Danubian Slavs who were pushed out to north by Vlakhs (Romans)... Russian primary chronicle records collective memory of past, but those memories would probably skip language transitions, leaving possibility that those so called Danubian Slavs were not yet Slavic speaking at the time they lived around Danube... note that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians and thus must have incorporated significant E-V13 and also some of J haplogroups... that would explain why spread of E-V13 is relatively homogenous in Serb settled areas and much higher than in Croats ...

Scordisci just lived and moved along Danube basin... so when pushed from Serbia they would naturally end up in Bohemia which is where they probably also originally came from... end Bohemia is land Boiki (that neighbours Frankia on west and white Cratia on east) from where white (west) Serbs came to Balkan to make Serbs of today....

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&hl=nl&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

note that historic record states Serbs come to Balkan from land of Boiki where they have also originally dwellt... such statement implies there was no continuity, it implies they originally dwellt in Boiki than spread elsewhere, returned to it, and only than came to Balkan...

note that according to some sources molecular diversity of I2a-Din seems to be much higher in Serb settled areas, Bohemia, and Ukraine than e.g. in Croatia indicating much earlier presence in these regions... this if correct, excludes I2a-Din being Illyrian genetics and points out that expansion of I2a-Din to Croatia happened only with Slavs, while I2a-Din in Serbia was also present before Slavs... thus, Scordisci...

the Scordisci where celtic/illyrian mix and got there name from the failed celtic enterprise to take greece. Actually they where pure celtic when they attacked greece and mixed with illyrians later.

the scirii went to the carpathians mountains ( montes bastanae) and mixed with the germanic bastanae, and later went with them to moden day kosovo on the request of philip V of macedonia around 200BC, over 60000 went there. The I2a would have come into the balkans at that time.
thats what I read
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...qqd2nAg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=scordisci tribe&f=false

BTW, what are the dotted lines on your map, I2a areas?

 

[MOESAN]

I still think that Cucuteni-Tripolye is a slight mismatch, as I explain here. At least, the diversification of I2a1b1a appears to have happened later (other I2a1b's are native to Northwestern Europe and are not really being considered here).



I follow you here, but with a question: When do you think that proto-Slavic differentiated from proto-Balto-Slavic? Did it really happen long enough ago as to have happened before I2a-Din became an important part of the population's haplogroups? Because if not, then it's appropriate to assume that there was never such universal R1a dominance in the Slavs, just in the proto-Balto-Slavs, who form only a component of the ancestry of the Slavs.



Please be more specific. Are you saying that you find the S cluster to be Slavic but the N cluster to be non-Slavic? If so, then why is the N cluster so omnipresent among the North Slavs? If it's the other way around, then why is S so much younger? I have trouble fitting what we know about the diversity patterns of I2a-Din into a multi-ethnicity pooling point model.



Actually, other than the part about it likely being from many waves (I still suspect that the Slavic migrations was the only important wave), I basically agree with this. I think Central Europe is more likely than Carpathian due to the distribution of the rest of I2a1b.

I'm not documented enough on the last HTs of I2a1b and I'm tempted to agree with your point of view - sure slavic colonization in South did the most or the work - but I have yet some questions?
- what HTs are the commonest ones in present day Carpathians? (of Romania, say) -
- if Y-I2a1b of Romania turns up to be the 'dinaric' one, why a slavic dominant people would have a highland repartition in Romania: the previous masters pushed back in mountains by a former vainquished population returning home?

 

[sparkey]

I2a-Din is estimated to spread from Poland towards Ukraine, Russia and Balkan...

It's important to understand that Nordtvedt estimates Poland only because it is in between the Dinaric diversity hotspots and the non-Dinaric diversity hotspots of I2a1b1. But since there is such a huge geographic disparity, Poland is really only a wild guess.

The recent finding of an out member of I2a1b2-Isles in Iraq might shed a bit more light on I2a1b as a whole... or just muddy the waters further.

I2a-Din is not spread only along Balkan, among Kurds, and in west Slavs... in fact, it is also widely spread in Ukraine and south Russia...this can indeed perhaps be related to Sarmatians.....

Has there finally been proven I2a-Din found in Kurds? I recall Alan pointing out that we only have 3 tested Haplogroup I Kurds who we know the subclade for sure, and they've been I1, I2c, and I2a2a (old I2b1, not related to I2a-Din). The sample size is only in the low double digits for all Kurds who have been so thoroughly tested, though.

if you look at Nordvedt map, from Poland I2a-Din has spread in tri directions: northeast, east and southeast...

Don't read too much into the Nordtvedt map, it doesn't represent the temporal aspect and the branches may not be splitting at the right time/places. I find the Verenich maps for I2a-Din more informative, have you seen those?

it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)

This doesn't seem geographically correct at all. I admit that there is a curious diversity spike of I2a-Din in Austria (which I've generally assumed to be a pooling point), but nothing anywhere near Hamburg, or anything to suggest an East Germanic origin.

Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....

Yeah but I assume that they contributed mostly I1 and some I2a2a (old I2b1) in terms of I subclades, probably accounting for some of the interesting high I1 we see east of I1's higher divesity areas near Denmark and Northern Germany.

I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...

What's the evidence for I2a-Din-N being ancient in the Balkans though? I admit that the fact that N is more common that S in places like Greece and Romania (no evidence of it in Kurds yet though...) is a curious fact that any analysis must grapple with. But we just don't see a lot of diversity of I2a-Din as a whole in the Balkans, except maybe a little in Bosnia... certainly, it looks like I2a-Din is a later introduction there.

I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....

It seems like a geographic mismatch to me, unless we're talking relatively late (like late Iron Age) introduction of Celtic culture and language to some population that had I2a-Din present. Tribes like the Helvetii seem certainly too western.

 

[sparkey]

I'm not documented enough on the last HTs of I2a1b and I'm tempted to agree with your point of view - sure slavic colonization in South did the most or the work - but I have yet some questions?
- what HTs are the commonest ones in present day Carpathians? (of Romania, say) -
- if Y-I2a1b of Romania turns up to be the 'dinaric' one, why a slavic dominant people would have a highland repartition in Romania: the previous masters pushed back in mountains by a former vainquished population returning home?

Romanian I2a is I2a1b1a-Din-N dominant from what I can tell.