How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Çerç]

You require a high TMRCA Polish clade to deem it "local", but insist on calling I-Y18331 pre-Slavic although though not one of the existing Balkan/Greek subclades predate the Slavic migration.

The Celtic migration 2200-2300 ybp is pretty much out of question with current data, unless you would like to provide a better estimation method than the YFull one. Later migrations, Slavic or pre-Slavic, are among the more plausible possibilities.

 

[TetaEglantina]

An unlikely theory -

Ancient Greece being an old civilisation may have had contact from cucuteni or vinca people, they may have carried this branch of proto i2a-din. Some experts expect i2a to appear in these and many years later become the proto south slavs after mixing with r1a

"The Dispilio Tablet, discovered in 1994 in Dispilio, Kastoria regional unit, Greece."

 

[Demetrios]

You require a high TMRCA Polish clade to deem it "local", but insist on calling I-Y18331 pre-Slavic although though not one of the existing Balkan/Greek subclades predate the Slavic migration.

The Celtic migration 2200-2300 ybp is pretty much out of question with current data, unless you would like to provide a better estimation method than the YFull one. Later migrations, Slavic or pre-Slavic, are among the more plausible possibilities.

You refer to further downstream clades that are either exclusively Greek or exclusively southern-Balkan, yet i am referring to the basal subclades of I-Y18331 which i mentioned in my prior post. I-A2512 for example might not be exclusively Greek (aside of the Greek variance within it) but it is almost exclusively southern European. With the notable exception of one Chuvash Turkic family, the rest are either southern Balkan or Ashkenazim Jewish, both of whom have a southern-European/Mediterranean autosomal profile. The serious lack of actual northern Slavic samples within it, in conjunction with the TMRCA shared by its members and their southern profile, suggest that this subclade must have migrated rather quickly to the south where it diversified. Again, it's not only a matter of TMRCA, but its combination with geographic distribution, sample frequency and sample variance. Yes, i would need to wait and see how that Polish I-Y18331* evolves to get a better picture, such as which other samples share the subclade with him, what are their TMRCA, etc..

Furthermore, I-Y18331 doesn't have to be southern Balkan or Greek in origin (obviously it's not) in order for it to be pre-Slavic (nor did i mention anything about it being local in the context of the southern Balkans). Any of either the Celtic, Bastarnae, Gothic, and other non-Slavic eastern European tribes having it and spreading it, would deem it pre-Slavic.

The Celtic reference that was suggested in my prior post doesn't only pertain to the southern migration of I-Y18331, but also to any possible eastern migration that would explain the few non-Jewish samples of eastern Europe. And aside of that, of course i also mentioned it as a hypothesis for the southern migration of I-Y18331 as well, per the age estimation range (not average) of Y-Full. Just because i mention it doesn't mean that i adopt it. I am also supportive of later migrations, such as the Bastarnae (for some time now) and Gothic (more recently).

 

[Demetrios]

An unlikely theory -

Ancient Greece being an old civilisation may have had contact from cucuteni or vinca people, they may have carried this branch of proto i2a-din. Some experts expect i2a to appear in these and many years later become the proto south slavs after mixing with r1a

"The Dispilio Tablet, discovered in 1994 in Dispilio, Kastoria regional unit, Greece."

Mate, Cucuteni-Trypillia and Vinča people lived in the Neolithic/Eneolithic period, approximately 7700-4750 ybp, and obviously are unrelated to I-Y3120 that formed approximately 3400 ybp and its members share a TMRCA of approximately 2200 ybp. Furthermore, its I-Y81696 sister clade and other upstream clades above I-CTS10228 suggest that I-Y3120 migrated to eastern Europe some time during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, something that is also visible in SNP tracker models that were shared in the past, such as this following one from http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html, https://i.ibb.co/DC5MZWq/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y3120-or-I-S20602.png (I-Y3120 and I-S20602 are the same thing, also don't view it as a literal migrational route but just to give you an approximate idea, based on sample distribution and their age estimations).

 

[Demetrios]

lol... Genetic analyzes of the remains of people from the Vinca and Cucuteni cultures show that they were farmers, overwhelming carriers of the G2a haplogroup (more than 70%), the next being H2. Haplogroup I2a is almost completely missing from that period in the Balkans and present central, further west and North west Europe.

That's not totally accurate. Indeed the Neolithic Balkans were predominantly G2a (some 57%), but we also had some minor I2a presence, though certainly not I-Y3120 which came later. You can see some interesting pie charts in these following Eupedia articles, about Europe in general:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/starcevo_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/linear_pottery_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/megalithic_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/funnelbeaker_culture.shtml

Not surprisingly, the Megalithic cultures in western Europe were almost exclusively I (84 samples), while they also had very few H2 (3 samples). I suppose you meant to write, present in central, further west and north-west Europe.

 

[TetaEglantina]

That's not totally accurate. Indeed the Neolithic Balkans were predominantly G2a (some 57%), but we also had some minor I2a presence, though certainly not I-Y3120 which came later. You can see some interesting pie charts in these following Eupedia articles, about Europe in general:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/starcevo_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/linear_pottery_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/megalithic_culture.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/funnelbeaker_culture.shtml

Not surprisingly, the Megalithic cultures in western Europe were almost exclusively I (84 samples), while they also had very few H2 (3 samples). I suppose you meant to write, present in central, further west and north-west Europe.

How do we explain the elavated g2 levels in South Italy/Greece/Turkey compared to other regions? Is it possible ancient greeks carried g2 alongside j2a? G2 looks to be wiped out in most of Europe but these regions sometimes have up to 10%

 

[Demetrios]

How do we explain the elavated g2 levels in South Italy/Greece/Turkey compared to other regions? Is it possible ancient greeks carried g2 alongside j2a? G2 looks to be wiped out in most of Europe but these regions sometimes have up to 10%

They certainly carried G2a, being the predominant haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers who are also responsible for much of their autosomal profile. In terms of samples, we have the Neolithic sample from Kleitos in Kozani being G2a and dated to 4230-3995 BCE. Also, the Minoan from Odigitria in Phaestos being G2a and dated to 2210-1680 BCE. Last, a lesser known one, a medieval Cretan sample from Heraklion being G and dated to the 11th century CE.

 

[Denis87]

That's not totally accurate. Indeed the Neolithic Balkans were predominantly G2a (some 57%), but we also had some minor I2a presence, though certainly not I-Y3120 which came later. You can see some interesting pie charts in these following Eupedia articles, about Europe in general:

Not surprisingly, the Megalithic cultures in western Europe were almost exclusively I (84 samples), while they also had very few H2 (3 samples). I suppose you meant to write, present in central, further west and north-west Europe.

Did they test yet any examples from ancient Athens, Sparta or Macedonia, I'm referring to the classical Greek period ? I've found articles about Minoan and Mycenaean findings, and that remains of hoplites from Marathon battle have been found but I didn't find anything on y chromosome test for classical Greece. And are there any remains of Spartan warriors ? I'd love to know if they were any different from Perioikoi and Homoios, my educated guess is that it would've been the same but ...

 

[Demetrios]

Did they test yet any examples from ancient Athens, Sparta or Macedonia, I'm referring to the classical Greek period ? I've found articles about Minoan and Mycenaean findings, and that remains of hoplites from Marathon battle have been found but I didn't find anything on y chromosome test for classical Greece. And are there any remains of Spartan warriors ? I'd love to know if they were any different from Perioikoi and Homoios, my educated guess is that it would've been the same but ...

No, we don't have samples from Archaic/Classical/Hellenistic Athens, Sparta, or Macedon yet. We do have samples though from the Phocaean Greek colony of Empúries (Spain), published in "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)", which included an Aegean cluster (designated as Empúries2) composed of five samples and dated to the Classical (x1), Hellenistic (x2), and Roman (x2) periods. 3/3 males belonged to haplogroup J; namely:
I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) = Female
I8205 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8208 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8216 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8338 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Female

Furthermore, a lesser known case which i have discussed again in this forum and also includes the aforementioned medieval Cretan sample from Heraklion, is a preliminary presentation that was shown on February 16th 2018 by Nikolaos Psonis. It also included Classical samples (478-430 BCE) from the city of Ambracia, with one male sample being read sufficiently to give us a Y-DNA of R1b1b. You can see it at 15:15 of the presentation. Later on, at 23:52 he shares some details of a future publication which will include additional analysis of the Ambracian samples already shown (since these were just preliminary results), but also analysis of Archaic and/or Classical Corinthian samples. I contacted Psonis in early 2020 asking him for more details of when we can expect the study, and he gave me an approximate range of 2-3 years (back then). So, probably within 2022 we will have it.

Last, there are probably thousands of ancient Greek skeletal remains that are found and stored not just in Greece but abroad as well. Aside of that though, there is also the aspect of quality, with many remains of ancient people lacking a number of alleles, rendering their analysis either difficult, deficient, or impossible. Then there is also the matter of funding and bureaucracy.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

No, we don't have samples from Archaic/Classical/Hellenistic Athens, Sparta, or Macedon yet. We do have samples though from the Phocaean Greek colony of Empúries (Spain), published in "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)", which included an Aegean cluster (designated as Empúries2) composed of five samples and dated to the Classical (x1), Hellenistic (x2), and Roman (x2) periods. 3/3 males belonged to haplogroup J; namely:
I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) = Female
I8205 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8208 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8216 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Y-DNA J
I8338 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2) = Female

Furthermore, a lesser known case which i have discussed again in this forum and also includes the aforementioned medieval Cretan sample from Heraklion, is a preliminary presentation that was shown on February 16th 2018 by Nikolaos Psonis. It also included Classical samples (478-430 BCE) from the city of Ambracia, with one male sample being read sufficiently to give us a Y-DNA of R1b1b. You can see it at 15:15 of the presentation. Later on, at 23:52 he shares some details of a future publication which will include additional analysis of the Ambracian samples already shown (since these were just preliminary results), but also analysis of Archaic and/or Classical Corinthian samples. I contacted Psonis in early 2020 asking him for more details of when we can expect the study, and he gave me an approximate range of 2-3 years (back then). So, probably within 2022 we will have it.

Last, there are probably thousands of ancient Greek skeletal remains that are found and stored not just in Greece but abroad as well. Aside of that though, there is also the aspect of quality, with many remains of ancient people lacking a number of alleles, rendering their analysis either difficult, deficient, or impossible. Then there is also the matter of funding and bureaucracy.

Very nice. Looking very forward to the future results and glad to see R1b in ancient Greece.

I checked to see the genes of medieval Poles and saw one study, but it didn’t have an aDNA analysis where we could compare modern Greeks to medieval Poles, since Poland may have an important role in the migration of Y3120 subclades. We know Greeks are genetically distant from modern Poles. No I-CTS10228 clades were found in the medieval study, but it was from a limited geographical area and so might have missed them. The study said there was input into medieval Poland from the east.

 

[Demetrios]

Very nice. Looking very forward to the future results and glad to see R1b in ancient Greece.

I checked to see the genes of medieval Poles and saw one study, but it didn’t have an aDNA analysis where we could compare modern Greeks to medieval Poles, since Poland may have an important role in the migration of Y3120 subclades. We know Greeks are genetically distant from modern Poles. No I-CTS10228 clades were found in the medieval study, but it was from a limited geographical area and so might have missed them. The study said there was input into medieval Poland from the east.

Let me also remind you of two rumored Mycenaean samples supposedly belonging to R1b. They were first mentioned in Anthrogenica by Ryukendo and Eurogenes (Generalissimo). But again, these are just rumors for the time being, not facts.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a more elaborate study on the haplogroups of the different periods of Poland (mostly interested about the Iron Age, not really Medieval), with a hefty sample size and from a broad geographical area as you pointed out.

 

[Demetrios]

I tried to find out better and here is what I found for the period from ~ 8000 years ago to 4800 years ago in the Balkans and the area of Vinca, Starcevo and Cucuteni cultures.

That's not totally accurate either. Regarding the Balkans during ~8000-3000 BCE, i am aware of the following I2a:
I2529 - Bulgaria - 5726-5575 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
I2165 - Bulgaria - 3020-2895 BCE - I2a1b1a2a2 (I-Y5606)
Bul4 - Bulgaria - 3012-2900 BCE - I2a1b1a2a2 (I-Y5606)
Bul6 - Bulgaria - 3400-1600 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
Bul8 - Bulgaria - 3400-1600 BCE - I2 (I-P215)
I2175 - Bulgaria - 3328-3015 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)
I2176 - Bulgaria - 3338-3025 BCE - I2a1b1a2 (I-CTS10057)
I4607 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7340-6640 BCE - I2a (I-S2599)
I4914 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6355-5990 BCE - I2a1b1a2b (I-Z161)
I4915 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6340-5990 BCE - I2a1b (I-M436)
I5401 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7076-6699 BCE - I2a1b2 (I-S2555)
I5402 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6361-6050 BCE - I2a1b1a2 (I-CTS10057)
I5771 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6500-6250 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
I4878 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 5995-5710 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-M223)
I5773 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 8240-7940 BCE - I* (I-M170*)
I4880 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 6000-5725 BCE - I2a1b1a2b (I-Z161)
I4870 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 7045-6535 BCE - I2* (I-BY32198*)
I5236 - Serbia/Romania (Iron Gates) - 8290-7825 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
VINJ4 - Croatia (Starčevo) - 5600 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I4167 - Croatia - 4790-4558 BCE - I2 (I-P215)

Hungary isn't considered part of the Balkans proper, even though broadly speaking its southern parts are within it. In any case, for the record here are some respective samples from Hungary as well:
M6-116.1 - Hungary (Starčevo) - 5600 BCE - I (I-M170)
I1890 - Hungary - 5100-4750 BCE - I2a (I-CTS2257)
I2752 - Hungary - 3600-3000 BCE - I2a1a1a1 (I-Y3992)
I2753 - Hungary - 3332-2929 BCE - I2a1a1a (I-L158)
I2754 - Hungary - 3337-3024 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
I2755 -Hungary - 3600-3000 BCE - I2a (I-P37)
BAB5 - Hungary - 5050 BCE - I1* (I-Z2699*)
I1905 - Hungary - 4826-4602 BCE - I2a2 (I-L596)
I1495 - Hungary - 4491-4357 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I2789 - Hungary - 3800-3600 BCE - I2a2 (I-BY421)
I2387 - Hungary - 5000-4500 BCE - I2 (I-P215)
I0449 - Hungary - 5000-4500 BCE - I2a1a1b1 (I-Y4213)
I2793 - Hungary - 4444-4257 BCE - I2a (I-CTS10057)
KO1 - Hungary - 5780-5650 BCE - I2a1a (I-P37)
I4971 - Hungary - 5736-5547 BCE - I2a (I-S2599)
I2378 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-L1228)
I2379 - Hungary - 5209-4912 BCE - I2a1b1a1 (I-CTS10057)
I4188 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1 (I-M223)
I2384 - Hungary - 5302-5057 BCE - I2a2 (I-SK1271)
I3535 - Hungary - 5221-5000 BCE - I2a2 (I-SK1271)
I2375 - Hungary - 5300-4900 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)
I2377 - Hungary - 5208-4942 BCE - I2a1b1a2a (I-L701)

In the context of the Balkans more G2a exists as well, though i didn't check specifically for it.

 

[Demetrios]

Thanks for the info.
I looked for data only from the period and space of Vinca, Starcevo and Cucuteni cultures starting with a maximum of 8000 years ago, not 8000 BCE, until ~ 4800 years ago. Probably I did not find all the data about that period in the space of those cultures, but it seems obvious that in the time interval and in the space of those cultures, I2a is insignificant.
The Iron Gate results are older than the time of the G2a expansion in the Balkans. I did not find any data about VINJ4 (Starcevo)
I did not take into account the results that do not seem to belong to these cultures, where there were some other I2a but also many other G2a.

Oh ok, i now see how you meant it. By the way, now that i looked at it quickly i found 22 G2a samples from the Vinča, Starčevo, and Cucuteni-Trypillian cultures between 8000-4800 ybp, not 16 as you have listed, which will surely affect the aforementioned statistics. As for VINJ4, you can see more info about the sample in the "Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization" (2015) paper. Specifically press this (an XLS file containing the supplementary datasets will begin downloading), and go to dataset S3 (you have to scroll to the right once you open it since the table is big and the Y-DNA haplogroups column doesn't immediately show).

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Another man with a Jewish surname was found in I-Y23115, the “Jewish” subbranch in Y18331. There are quite a number of males who are either confirmed or suspected to be in that group. As we know, they are under A10959 and distantly related to Y66192, the “south Balkan” branch below A10959. It’s very interesting to me because I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and had many Jewish friends.

 

[Herbalz]

I made an account for the sole purpose of reading about this haplogroup as I have the I2 haplogroup myself. My Dad is Spanish/French Basque/Native American So I'm trying to figure out how i got this haplogroup. So what's the general consensus on I2's origin as of 2021?

 

[Denis87]

I made an account for the sole purpose of reading about this haplogroup as I have the I2 haplogroup myself. My Dad is Spanish/French Basque/Native American So I'm trying to figure out how i got this haplogroup. So what's the general consensus on I2's origin as of 2021?

Native European, first human haplogroup to live in Europe was haplogroup I ... for more you can read Eupedia articles but you won't find that many conclusive answers as technology to test ancient peoples is still new and it will take time ...

 

[BohemianLegionar]

7000 BC the main Ydna in the Northern Balkans was I2a1 and J2 in Southern Balkans

 

[Parapolitikos]

You require a high TMRCA Polish clade to deem it "local", but insist on calling I-Y18331 pre-Slavic although though not one of the existing Balkan/Greek subclades predate the Slavic migration.

The Celtic migration 2200-2300 ybp is pretty much out of question with current data, unless you would like to provide a better estimation method than the YFull one. Later migrations, Slavic or pre-Slavic, are among the more plausible possibilities.

You trust the Y-full dating method too much.
First of all give many times ranges 1000 years apart.
Secondly it never got proven to be correct.
Thirdly is not based on hard science, like carbon dating can be said is.

 

[Çerç]

You trust the Y-full dating method too much.
First of all give many times ranges 1000 years apart.
Secondly it never got proven to be correct.
Thirdly is not based on hard science, like carbon dating can be said is.

Nice to see you take a break from using and misinterpreting YFull dates on that sci-fi Albanian thread you opened, to criticize YFull dating here where you don't like it.

 

[Illyri]

There is a new Hungarian I-Y3120* sample on the ytree (future new subclade BY154615).

View attachment 12738

Does this new sample add anything meaningful to the debate regarding the place of origin of CTS10228 and its route to the Balkans ?