I2-SK1258

Tautalus

Tautalus

Active member
Messages
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Points
93
Ethnic group
Portuguese
Y-DNA haplogroup
I2-M223 / I-FTB15368
mtDNA haplogroup
H6a1b2
SK1258 is a subclade of CTS6433. It originated around 2350 BCE.

In FTDNA there are 86 SK1258 branches.

Phylogenetic Tree of the haplogroup
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According to SNP Tracker this SNP mutation occurred in the Netherlands, near the Rhine, in the Neolithic.
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According to FTDNA Globetrekker this SNP mutation occurred in East England in the Bronze Age, with his descendants returning to Continental Europe still during the Bronze Age.
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I doubt this mutation occurred here, I think the FTDNA calculated this location based on the reported modern ancestry of FTDNA users and not on local Bronze Age genetic data.
It must have been the Anglo-Saxon tribes who brought this haplogroup to Britain in the Migration Period, in the 5th century.

This paternal lineage is spread by 17 countries (Sometimes the FTDNA user identifies their country as England or Scotland, other times as the United Kingdom).

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Switzerland 22
United States 17
England 14
Germany 14
Ireland 7
United Kingdom 7
Scotland 6
Sweden 4
France 4
Denmark 3
Wales 2
Austria 2
Russian Federation 2
Netherlands 2
South Africa 1
Canada 1
Norway 1
Portugal 1
Unknown Origin 63
 
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Above I leave a map with the areas of highest incidence of haplogroup I-SK1258.


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The Funnelbeaker culture emerged in northern modern-day Germany c. 4100 BCE. Archaeological evidence strongly suggests that it originated through a migration of colonists from the Michelsberg culture of Central Europe. The Michelsberg culture is archaeologically and genetically strongly differentiated from the preceding post-Linear Pottery cultures of Central Europe, being distinguished by increased levels of hunter-gatherer ancestry Its people were probably descended from farmers migrating into Central Europe out of Iberia and modern-day France, who in turn were descended from farmers of the Cardial Ware cultures who had migrated westwards from the Balkans along the Mediterranean coast.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
A lot of mesolithic I-M423 here -

It was quite widespread across Europe, including North Europe. SNP tracker doesn't really show that, best to look at all ancient DNA to understand the history/timeline
Click to expand...
The oldest sample from Sweden, then a sample from Spain four centuries more recent. And other samples from others Western European countries. That's the problem with this haplogroup, it is widespread across Europe, as you said. The WHG were nomadic and traveled from North to South of the continent.
No ancient samples from the Balkans, it just goes to show that the current location with the highest frequency of these haplogroup should not be confused with their place of origin.

I didn't know about this site, it's interesting. Thanks TaktikatEMalet.

With the branch L801 its easier. Serbia, Iron Gates, then Poland with Globular Amphora, then Northern Europe. SNP Tracker places L801 in northern Germany, Globetrekker in Southern Poland, which is more accurate.

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Kirgonix, was your map of SK1258 based on Yfull data ? The path of the oldest branches is different from both SNP Tracker and Globetrekker. But it also places I-SK1258 in the east of England, in the same period, as Globetrekker.
 
Tautalus said:
Kirgonix, was your map of SK1258 based on Yfull data ? The path of the oldest branches is different from both SNP Tracker and Globetrekker. But it also places I-SK1258 in the east of England, in the same period, as Globetrekker.
Click to expand...
the map I use is this https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ and it is related to yfull
 
Thanks for the info Kirgonix, you are very helpful, as always.
 
Since you created this post on the forum on the 5th, I've been researching a little bit about your y-dna and I've come to some conclusions.

SNP Tracker - Try to present your mutations in a harmonious way and with averages between the findings and as such does NOT present the real locations of the mutations
FTDNA Globetrekker - Try to present your mutations in a harmonious way but very based on the modern population, although I don't think it's completely wrong.
Phylogeographer Tracker - In my opinion, it goes into more detail, so we can understand many complex directions and have a glimpse of the modern population

In your place, I would take an average of the 3 programs and base my reading of the mutations on that approach.

In other words, The first mutations followed more the approach presented by the Phylogeographer as it seems to me to explore these ancient mutations in more detail and with more credibility.

As for the more recent ones, both Phylo and FTDNA are largely based on the modern population and we cannot forget that the British and North American community does this type of testing much more than the other communities. In this sense, I would go more towards the SNP Tracker approach, which in my opinion seems the most plausible.

Also, if you will allow me, regarding your most recent mutation.
I-FTB15368, on October 18th, I presented you with a theory, according to which I placed your haplogroup as being original to the population of Flanders and Burgundy, during the Reign of Sancho I.

However, after some research I have a second theory that could easily be more accepted by you, too.
Haplogroup I was very common in Iberia, however it was replaced by 2 large waves of migrations from central Europe.
The first through peoples crossed between the Bell Beakers and the CordedWare and a second through the Celts, who then mixed with the Iberians, giving rise to the Celtiberians that you know so well.

And this is where things get interesting.
For some years now, the Vacceos have been spoken of as a people of Celtic origin, belonging to the group of Belovacs who would have left northern Europe around 600 BC, together with other people of the Celtic group of Belgians, as a result of pressure exercised by the Germanic peoples, reaching the lands of the peninsular interior in the first half of the 6th century BC, together with other peoples such as the Arévacos (Oriental Vacceos).

This migration would have occurred 150 years after your last mutation and this conclusion can also indicate the origin of the second wave of migrations (Celts) that ended up in Iberia.

I am drawing this conclusion based only on 2 or 3 Celtiberian tribes that trace their origins to that area, but DNA crossing and these small "clues" lead me to find this.

In summary, I believe that the path of your ancestors' Y-DNA comes down to hunter-gatherers who over time arrived in Europe, coming from Anatolia, passing through the Balkans and settling for a long time in this region and northern Italy ( giving rise to the North-Italian Illyrians and the Albanian Illyrians).
Then some lineages made their way to the area of present-day Belgium and crossed paths with people descended from the cordedware hybridized with the bell beakers and became part of a local community that would also have the r1b mutation, obviously.

And then, some paternal lines were part of the second wave of migrations to Iberia, giving rise to many of the Celtiberian tribes that we know about. Those who claim to be descendants of this population from the Belgian area are the Vacceos and the Arevacci.

We also have the origin of the Cantabri as coming from people from Brittany, Northern Europe.
This theory shows nothing more than the migrations of the Celts who migrated for unknown reasons (maybe north-atlantic commerce) and later to escape the Roman rule.

This would explain some links to countries of Celtic origin.
It's merely a theory but I thought it would be interesting to share my research with you.


Returning to the focus of your topic, which concerns the oldest mutations. As I said above, I would bet on the Phylogeographer Tracker Option for the oldest lineages and certainly, if you compare your DNA with the MyTrueAncestry samples you will have many connections to the Illyrians.
These Illyrians will obviously have other haplogroups, namely J, etc. however they have a component derived from this "migration".
Try seeing your MyTrueAncestry results and share them with us.
Could I be wrong? I can, but I tried to be as objective as possible in my points :)

I hope, above all, that I helped in your search for your lost ancestors!
 
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A map of Gaul in the 1st century BC, showing the relative position of the Bellovaci tribe.
The Bellovaci (Gaulish: Bellouacoi) were a Belgic tribe dwelling in the modern Picardy region, near the present-day city of Beauvais, during the Iron Age and the Roman period. After they were defeated by Caesar in 57 BC, they gave lukewarm support to the Gallic revolt led by Vercingetorix in 52 BC. The Bellovaci nonetheless organized resistance against Rome in 51 BC.
 
Kirgonix, thanks you for the investigation you did, your willingness to help and investigate these matters is noteworthy.

Your theory is interesting, but everything I've read so far about this clade seems to point in another direction.

The distribution of I2a2a-L801, and all of its subclades (SK1258 is a subclade of L801), aligns very well with the historical settlement of Germanic populations.
The geographical distribution of L801 is predominantly concentrated in Germanic countries. In Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, England, ...
This clade, which is present together with the other main Germanic and Nordic haplogroups, such as R1b-U106, I1, R1a-L664, demonstrate quite well a correlation with the historical influence of Germanic peoples.

The theory how this come to be is that the males of Globular Amphora (which belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup L801) were assimilated into Indo-European-speaking Corded Ware populations that eventually settled in Scandinavia. The paternal lineages of these individuals latter became part of the Proto-Germanic gene pool.

This haplogroup is found in the Germanic tribes of the Migration Period. The Lombards, for instance, were carriers of subclades of haplogroups R1b and L801.

So, the connection of haplogroup L801 (and all clades downstream) with Germanic peoples is solid.

To my knowledge this haplogroup has never been found in samples associated with ancient Celtic peoples.

There are several articles by Maciamo on Eupedia on the subject that explain this better than I can, for example, among others:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2a

https://eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

Regarding the maps I find strange, for example, the positioning of the subclades of I2a2a-L801 in East England in 2100 or 2000 BCE, when at that time they should have been in Scandinavia in the beginning of the Nordic Bronze Age (2000/1750–500 BCE).

However, the maps (Globetrekker) indicate that they returned to Continental Europe after 2000/1900 BCE, perhaps their descendants were later assimilated by the Proto-Germanic.

There is a time interval of 250 years for the beginning of the Nordic Bronze Age that allows this interpretation.

Anyway, I don't think that any of the maps are 100% accurate on the path of this haplogroup.​
 
Tautalus said:
Kirgonix, thanks you for the investigation you did, your willingness to help and investigate these matters is noteworthy.

Your theory is interesting, but everything I've read so far about this clade seems to point in another direction.

The distribution of I2a2a-L801, and all of its subclades (SK1258 is a subclade of L801), aligns very well with the historical settlement of Germanic populations.
The geographical distribution of L801 is predominantly concentrated in Germanic countries. In Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, England, ...
This clade, which is present together with the other main Germanic and Nordic haplogroups, such as R1b-U106, I1, R1a-L664, demonstrate quite well a correlation with the historical influence of Germanic peoples.

The theory how this come to be is that the males of Globular Amphora (which belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup L801) were assimilated into Indo-European-speaking Corded Ware populations that eventually settled in Scandinavia. The paternal lineages of these individuals latter became part of the Proto-Germanic gene pool.

This haplogroup is found in the Germanic tribes of the Migration Period. The Lombards, for instance, were carriers of subclades of haplogroups R1b and L801.

So, the connection of haplogroup L801 (and all clades downstream) with Germanic peoples is solid.

To my knowledge this haplogroup has never been found in samples associated with ancient Celtic peoples.

There are several articles by Maciamo on Eupedia on the subject that explain this better than I can, for example, among others:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2a

https://eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

Regarding the maps I find strange, for example, the positioning of the subclades of I2a2a-L801 in East England in 2100 or 2000 BCE, when at that time they should have been in Scandinavia in the beginning of the Nordic Bronze Age (2000/1750–500 BCE).

However, the maps (Globetrekker) indicate that they returned to Continental Europe after 2000/1900 BCE, perhaps their descendants were later assimilated by the Proto-Germanic.

There is a time interval of 250 years for the beginning of the Nordic Bronze Age that allows this interpretation.

Anyway, I don't think that any of the maps are 100% accurate on the path of this haplogroup.​
Click to expand...
I had never thought of it that way.

This interpretation actually makes sense.
I just can't understand the link to Portugal. It is indeed a mystery.

Anyway, here's my sharing, which this time didn't help much hehehehe
 
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