I2a origins in Kurdistan

Ossetians are more likely J2, G and I with some R* folks. All these haplogroups are subclades of F*. F* is an error marker, that's why there is 41% of F* in South Ossetians. But it's most likely G and I.
Ossetians are Iranic and West Asian folks like Kurds. Ossetian tribes migrated into Europe and not vice versa. And not only Kurds have i2a but also Ossetians and some West Persians in Teheran, so all West Iranic peoples belong to some haplgorup I...
 
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!
 
I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?

Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here. I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.
 
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).
 
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.
 
Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...
 
Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here. I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.

I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.
 
I've got this from wiki:

I think that Caucasian Haplogroup I is going to tend to be I2*-B, like how Armenians have ~4% Haplogroup I and almost all of it has been I2*-B. I assume that Darginians are similar, but maybe with a founder effect (or mispredicted haplogroups? I don't know the studies).

We've talked a bit about the unusual I2*-B clade before on this forum... consensus was building that it must have spread with the influence of some riverfaring and seafaring people, who could have began migrating as far West as Germany around 2500 years ago.
 
I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations.
Kurds are Iranic and Arabs are Semitic. Kurds are NOT Semitic. If someone ever had his doubts, Kurdish DNA 'proofs' that Kurds ain't no Semites. Kurds have very different origin than Arabs.

It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.
I believe the early Indo-Europeans had almost only a West Asian component in them. But that's very West Asian-centric.

Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...
 
I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.

You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)
 
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...

I don't think that Haplogroup E arrived in Europe that early. It (along with J2) was expected by a lot of people to show up in Neolithic samples, but has failed thus far to do so. I think that a strong case can be made that it wasn't there yet.

There's also a linguistic argument to be made. Haplogroup E1b1b appears to be linked with the speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages. As far as we know, there were no Afro-Asiatic languages in Europe before the Phoenicians showed up in Iberia at the start of the 1st millennium BC. Now, if Basque (as well as the poorly-attested Iberian language) give us any idea here, it's more likely that the languages of Neolithic Europe were all ergative-agglutinative languages akin to those in ancient Anatolia and the Caucasus. Also, bear in mind that G2a showed up in Treilles.
 
You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)

I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.
 
I think misprediction is possible.

I wouldn't discount it, I think most of the studies of Kurds have been STR-predictions. Data is probably deficient still for Kurds as a whole. The FTDNA Kurdish DNA Project is currently useless... it has 1 out of 8 members as Haplogroup I, and they're I1, which must be a very recent introduction, if they are Kurdish at all.

If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

It's difficult to figure out I2*-B (still an STR cluster rather than an SNP by the way... I2*-B keeps getting negative on all SNPs that have been tested so far) because it has a gigantic geographic spread for something so young, from Scotland to Iran, and turns up as the dominant Haplogroup I clade in odd places like Crete. At least, we know that its more geographically limited and rarer brother clusters, I2*-A (mine!) and I2*-C, have their centers of diversity in or around Germany.
 
According to the Croatian scientists:

croatianscientists.jpg


http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
 
This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.
Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
 

They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I? I'm not sure that plays out... the age of Haplogroup I in Croatia (for sure I2a-Din this time, right?) is too young to support it as having been there for so long. Probably, there were other clades there early on, maybe something related to I2b-ADR or I2a1a or even proto-I2a-Din, which got totally displaced and/or replaced by normal genetic drift. Then, I suspect that I2a-Din came in with R1a from the North. And even if I'm wrong about that, and I2a-Din is truly indigenous to Croatia and hasn't moved since the Stone Age, then what that would mean is that it got bottlenecked to basically a single family there at one point, making so it would still have to expand drastically in the region.
 
They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I?
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.
 

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