I2a2 M423+

North Italian I2a2b said:
Nothing at all came out of the 37 marker test. What does this mean?? I guess I'll never know if I'm in one the "Irish" groups, right? Another weird thing...they matched me to some person in New Zealand. Anyway, I did join one of the names projects and I will be joining the FTDNA I2a Project soon.
Click to expand...

Hi North Italian I2a2b,

I have a similar problem...

My FTDNA test came back as Isles C2 - the weird thing is, the prevalence of my surname in the Mediterranean and Europe,
plus English texts that refer to my surname "Sard", point to a Sardinian origin - But you can't beat genetics as a marker to your true origin.

Doesn't discount an unwed mother passing on her surname, or just a surname change. People have moved about freely since the iron age as well - so could've been a traveller...

I can only genuinely trace family back to a 1770 marriage in Bermondsey, London, although I have a strong lead from a Sard family in the 1600's, and a Richardi Sard in the 1500's (sounds a little Italian?)... No Irish or Scottish in the mix as of yet...

My surname is very prevalent in the Balearic Islands, Spain, Northern Italy and France - but there are also some in Sweden...

So it is odd (but not unexpected or impossible - given the UK history of my family) to find the I2a2b, given I was sure it would be from an area where the name most frequently occurs..!!
 
SteveS said:
Hi North Italian I2a2b,

I have a similar problem...

My FTDNA test came back as Isles C2 - the weird thing is, the prevalence of my surname in the Mediterranean and Europe,
plus English texts that refer to my surname "Sard", point to a Sardinian origin - But you can't beat genetics as a marker to your true origin.

Doesn't discount an unwed mother passing on her surname, or just a surname change. People have moved about freely since the iron age as well - so could've been a traveller...

I can only genuinely trace family back to a 1770 marriage in Bermondsey, London, although I have a strong lead from a Sard family in the 1600's, and a Richardi Sard in the 1500's (sounds a little Italian?)... No Irish or Scottish in the mix as of yet...

My surname is very prevalent in the Balearic Islands, Spain, Northern Italy and France - but there are also some in Sweden...

So it is odd (but not unexpected or impossible - given the UK history of my family) to find the I2a2b, given I was sure it would be from an area where the name most frequently occurs..!!
Click to expand...

I as well, have surname issues with north Italy. I was told its either from
Praetor = Roman for Magistrate
Pretor = Venetian for Magistrate
Pretor = Pomeranian for reed dweller
Prator = English for low lands person
Prater = tyrolean for mountain top person

My DNA people range from North Italy, slovenia, tyrol, baden, netherlands, england and ireland
with 15% north east european, 11% celto-germanic and 3% f*


which one I can choose?..........hmmm
 
SteveS said:
My FTDNA test came back as Isles C2 - the weird thing is, the prevalence of my surname in the Mediterranean and Europe, plus English texts that refer to my surname "Sard", point to a Sardinian origin - But you can't beat genetics as a marker to your true origin.

Doesn't discount an unwed mother passing on her surname, or just a surname change. People have moved about freely since the iron age as well - so could've been a traveller...

I can only genuinely trace family back to a 1770 marriage in Bermondsey, London, although I have a strong lead from a Sard family in the 1600's, and a Richardi Sard in the 1500's (sounds a little Italian?)... No Irish or Scottish in the mix as of yet...

My surname is very prevalent in the Balearic Islands, Spain, Northern Italy and France - but there are also some in Sweden...

So it is odd (but not unexpected or impossible - given the UK history of my family) to find the I2a2b, given I was sure it would be from an area where the name most frequently occurs..!!
Click to expand...

You're right that Isles C2 is far removed from being Sardinian... effectively all Sardinian I2 is I2a1a, not I2a-Isles.

Here's a possibility: Perhaps "Sard" in your case is a variant of "Sherrard." They have similar distributions in Britain, and Sherrard is also present in Ireland, as we'd expect from an Isles C2 family. The -ard ending could also indicate some other similar truncation that only becomes synonymous with "a Sardinian" by coincidence.
 
Thanks Sparkey and Zanipolo,

Sherrard may be a distinct possibility, some have said the English Sard may have evolved from another surname - so this may be a good place to start.... There are quite a few in France (but the motherload is on the Balearic Islands)...

The book, Surnames of the United Kingdom: A Concise Etymological Dictionary Henry Harrison puts the definition as...

SARD (Fr.) Sardinian [Fr. Sarde; f. Sardi, the name of the early inhabitants of Sardinia, the Gr. Sardo (Zapoio)...


I am not sure what the (Fr.) stands for... France? From?, and I assume the FR. Sarde; f. Sardi ... Gr. Sardo... are other derivatives of the name?

But an English derivative sounds more likely given the Isles result.....!!

Thanks for all the help...

Cheers
 
SteveS said:
Thanks Sparkey and Zanipolo,

Sherrard may be a distinct possibility, some have said the English Sard may have evolved from another surname - so this may be a good place to start.... There are quite a few in France (but the motherload is on the Balearic Islands)...

The book, Surnames of the United Kingdom: A Concise Etymological Dictionary Henry Harrison puts the definition as...

SARD (Fr.) Sardinian [Fr. Sarde; f. Sardi, the name of the early inhabitants of Sardinia, the Gr. Sardo (Zapoio)...


I am not sure what the (Fr.) stands for... France? From?, and I assume the FR. Sarde; f. Sardi ... Gr. Sardo... are other derivatives of the name?

But an English derivative sounds more likely given the Isles result.....!!

Thanks for all the help...

Cheers
Click to expand...

It could be Zardo - popular surname in piedmont
Sartori popular in veneto
Zardon popular in friuli

or it could be Sordo = deaf person

Sardo is a person from Sardegna

Sardegna people usually have names ending in is or u
 
Thanks Zanipolo

There are also a lot of Sardo and Sardi in Italy (plus those in Italy that have dropped the vowel at the end and are just called "Sard") - the Sardinian reference has been in my family, verbally, for many generations - although I am open to it being incorrect too....

The name occurs the most in the Balearic Islands (believe it or not!)....

It will be interesting to find out more...

Thanks for all your help..!!!
 
SteveS said:
Thanks Zanipolo

There are also a lot of Sardo and Sardi in Italy (plus those in Italy that have dropped the vowel at the end and are just called "Sard") - the Sardinian reference has been in my family, verbally, for many generations - although I am open to it being incorrect too....

The name occurs the most in the Balearic Islands (believe it or not!)....

It will be interesting to find out more...

Thanks for all your help..!!!
Click to expand...

Sardinia was also under the kingdom of Aragon ( Catalans ) for a long time, it could also have some link there. I would not go lower than the 13th century because most people never had a surname ...unless you are nobility
 
Thanks for that : )

It is certainly an avenue I will look at.... As it keeps genetics in line with the name...

People have travelled about over the ages.... and many, I suspect, surnames may be less than 500 years old in some cases... or even changed from another name for whatever reason...

Your help has been invaluable Zanipolo - Thank you...
 
Thanks Yorkie, I just learned that I am I2a2b M423+ L161+. That make me I2a2b-Isles! I am new to this. What are the 8 separate subclades? My last name originates in Cornwall, England as far as I can tell. Would you say this is likely?
Thanks, Chris Nance
 
[email protected] said:
Thanks Yorkie, I just learned that I am I2a2b M423+ L161+. That make me I2a2b-Isles! I am new to this. What are the 8 separate subclades? My last name originates in Cornwall, England as far as I can tell. Would you say this is likely?
Thanks, Chris Nance
Click to expand...

Another Cornish I2! You and JFWR both now.

I'm somewhat familiar with your surname. It means "valley" in Cornish, and is related in that way to other Cornish surnames that start with "Nan-"... the surname Nancarrow pops up in my ancestry, and it has "Nance" as part of its origin ("Nance-carrow", meaning "valley of deer.")

Did you test STR markers so that we can determine which subcluster you belong to?
 
Sparky, here are my STR markers. Thanks for your help! I'm a newbie....Chris Nance

[TABLE="width: 704"]
[TR]
[TD]DYS393
[/TD]
[TD]DYS390
[/TD]
[TD]DYS19
[/TD]
[TD]DYS391
[/TD]
[TD]DYS385
[/TD]
[TD]DYS426
[/TD]
[TD]DYS388
[/TD]
[TD]DYS439
[/TD]
[TD]DYS389I
[/TD]
[TD]DYS392
[/TD]
[TD]DYS389II
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]24
[/TD]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]12-15
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]12
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]30
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[email protected] said:
Sparky, here are my STR markers. Thanks for your help! I'm a newbie....Chris Nance

[TABLE="width: 704"]
[TR]
[TD]DYS393[/TD]
[TD]DYS390[/TD]
[TD]DYS19[/TD]
[TD]DYS391[/TD]
[TD]DYS385[/TD]
[TD]DYS426[/TD]
[TD]DYS388[/TD]
[TD]DYS439[/TD]
[TD]DYS389I[/TD]
[TD]DYS392[/TD]
[TD]DYS389II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12-15[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

It looks like you fit into cluster B1, although the confidence is low-ish with only 12 markers. 37 would have fit you in with more confidence. Anyway, if I'm right and you indeed cluster in B1, then you're in the oldest group, and the group that more certainly has continental origins. That is, it's likely that your ancestors came to Britain post-Stonehenge, alongside the Iron Age Celts or Belgae or Anglo-Saxons or something like that that's relatively late (as you can tell, it's tough to say for sure which one it was). The B1 cluster is one of the few in I2 with anybody famous. Namely, Oliver Winchester, namesake of the Winchester Rifle, was I2a1b2-Isles-B1. Your ancestors probably diverged from his about 2000-4000 years ago, something like that.
 
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