I2a2a (M223) Mainhaplogroup of the Suebi (elbgermanic tribes)?

Palermo Trapani said:
Tutkun: I am I-M223 and my ancestors all immigrated to the USA between 1890-1904 from Sicily, provinces of Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento. Rural and mountainous villages. So it is in Sicily as well as Tuscany, Umbria and Lazio.
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In that area settled the Normans (I think, not sure) a Germanic tribe. I don't know the reasons why and how but Germanic presence in Palermo area is well known. They still speak their own language, and they are the source of blond Sicilians. if you do deep clade analysis you will know if the source of your I2 were Normans or is a local clade. my clade comes from North some 2700 years in the past.
 
Tutkin: Yes, Normans were in that area but they left primarily I1 and yes Gallo-Italic is still spoken in about 15 towns/districts in Sicily. I got my Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis from National Geographic and their history report noted that I-M223 (I2A) lineages were surviving ones post LGM with the WHG. There is some research to back this up that is out there that we can refer to. So based on what I have been reading, I was wondering if others here see the I-M223 is just more related to WHG and not "Germanic" perse. On all my gedmatch calculators, my single distances are all Sicily and Southern and Central Italian regions up to Abbruzzo. With respect to deep clade analysis, is FamilyTree the best for that.

Thanks for the response.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
I got my Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis from National Geographic and their history report noted that I-M223 (I2A) lineages were surviving ones post LGM with the WHG. There is some research to back this up that is out there that we can refer to. So based on what I have been reading, I was wondering if others here see the I-M223 is just more related to WHG and not "Germanic" perse.
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The problem is that I-M223 had to survive the Neolithic Revolution and the spread of pastoralism in Europe. Rather than assuming that WHG groups survived in place from the Mesolithic, when they were in fairly constant motion, we're better off looking for more proximate explanations, such as the Normans in Sicily, the Lombards in Italy, the Visigoths in Spain, and the Suebians in Germany and Britain, for instance. From there all fingers look to be pointing north, to Scandinavia.
 
Y-I2a2 is at first a pre-neolithic marker; It developped a lot of subclades with different stories. In NE Ireland, M284 < Y3721 seems come from Britain at first sight, and of Late Neolithic megalithers origin (Atlantic). Other subclades under CTS 10057 seem more eastern, often linked to Germanics people. We need detailed subclades before to make conclusions, surely Germanics spread some markers everywhere, in part into Britain and around, but not M284. The spotty Y-I2a2 distribution seems to point to some refuges sites at first so I doubt Suebi would have been Y-I2a2 as a majority (I 'll guess a lot of Y-R1b-U106). But the resilience of these Y-I2a1 and I2a2 males in Europe could explain they would have been later incorporated/ assimilated by some big tribes after some 'statu quo' periods, Celts and Germanics (even Yamna related tribes seems having taken them or tolerated in some places); for M284 I don't exclude Picts as spreaders at some stage of their history, along with Y-R1b's.
Lichtenstein I2a2 L38 is specific and rather continental, not even northern.
 
Pw

Interesting. Have we any dates for the Swedish concentrations? Dates would clinch or break the Hanseatic hypothesis

I've now seen Mats Carlins post - so the Hanseatic theory can be sacked
 
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'The I2-M223 lines in Västerbotten are certainly not due to medieval immigration. The largest group in Västerbotten belong to I-S8104 which seems to be Early Iron Age Scandinavian.'

Just seen this now - this answers the question I posed a few minutes ago. Any idea of the spread of I-S8104 within Scandinavia?
 
Personally I don't see any link between Suebi and Y-I2-M223 whatever the subclades, in N-Sweden.
Västerbotten is supposed, according to someones, to have been the target of an historical migration from S-Sweden, so closer than IA in time. I cannot check it for now. We know that the geographical origin of a clade is not tightly linked to its modern hotspot place. Geography changes by time. I don't know the succession of SNP 's leading to S8104. ATW the region occuped by Suebi is vaste and changing, and the M223 hotspot in Germany was in the Unstrut culture region, a local variant of Urnfields, maybe without links with proto-Germanics.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Tutkin: Yes, Normans were in that area but they left primarily I1 and yes Gallo-Italic is still spoken in about 15 towns/districts in Sicily. I got my Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis from National Geographic and their history report noted that I-M223 (I2A) lineages were surviving ones post LGM with the WHG. There is some research to back this up that is out there that we can refer to. So based on what I have been reading, I was wondering if others here see the I-M223 is just more related to WHG and not "Germanic" perse. On all my gedmatch calculators, my single distances are all Sicily and Southern and Central Italian regions up to Abbruzzo. With respect to deep clade analysis, is FamilyTree the best for that.

Thanks for the response.
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I'm I2-L801 and my paternal ancestry leads directly back to middling nobility from Normandy, both from genealogical and genetic research. Its hard to say where that branch of I2 comes from, but the fact that it peaks in northern Germany and has a relatively high representation in Germany/Scandinavia and former Norman settlements implies a connection to the Scandinavians. The prevalence of I1 in Scandinavia implies that the Indo-Europeans who created the Corded Ware culture seemingly had no problem assimilating the mesolithic hunter-gatherer lines there. They just seem to have had a particular contempt for neolithic farmers.
 
ReggieM: I have not done any downstream clade analysis. My Ancestry update indicates Southern European 98% (89% Italian-South, 9% Greek) and I get a 2% Norwegian signal. So it may be possible that my IM223 Y-DNA is from a Scandanavian source, but I would not say that is definitive. Regardless, I identify ethnically as 1) of European descent, 2) Southern European, 3) Italian, and specifically Southern Italian_Sicilian. Period exclamation point, not to be flippant. So regardless of the the direct source of my Y-DNA Haplogroup, I still maintain IM223 is a WHG lineage that survived in different sub-clades in various regions of Europe. The 3 Mesolithic WHG in the ancient Roman study (Antonio et al 2019) all were I2, 1 IM436, the immediate upstream clade of IM223, and 2 were IM223. The WHG in Western Sicily (Grotto Uzzo) also have IM436 showing up. So I2 first appears a long time ago, and Y DNA I is likely the only indigenous Haplogroup that originated in Europe. So it could be these lineages just got absorbed into the local populations as they transitioned to farming societies and not really being tied to specific movements of people from one region to the other.

From the Antonio et al 2019 supplement:

Mesolithic (10,000-6,000 BCE; n=3)
All three Mesolithic individuals are assigned to the I-M436 (I2a2) haplogroup, with two of them further classified into the I-M223 (I2a2a) subclade. The I haplogroup has been found in western hunter-gatherer (WHG) populations from many parts in Europe, including individuals from the Grotte du Bichon in Switzerland (11,820-11,610 calBCE), France (11,140-10,880 calBCE), and Germany (7,460-7,040 calBCE)(15, 70). In particular, several Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Iron Gates between Serbia and Romania (dated to as old as 8,000 BCE) belonged to the specific I-M223 (I2a2a) haplogroup (14). Therefore, the I-M436 haplogroup appears typical and widespread in Europe before the Neolithic transition, which is consistent with the similarity of the three Mesolithic Italian individuals to other WHGs based on autosomal SNPs.
 
No. I-M223 has a much wider distribution. However... downstream of I-M223, perhaps.

Maybe I-P78 was the marker of a Swabian.
 
Mats, I concur with your analysis that migration was earlier than Medieval. BTW, what is your source for the presence of S8104 in Västerbotten?
 
I am greek ( going at least 5 generations back ) from central greece thessaly and have I2a2a1c1a ( CTS 1977). I hope that is the most updated version of the subclade. How can you explain that. Did I have some kind of german/english ancestor that I did not know of ? My grandfather ( paternal ) was blonde with blue eyes.
 
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