Identifying the Roman subclades of J2a1

I'm a little bit skeptical of PF5456. 2500 years old unlikely is an Italic subclade, it's even younger than the founding of Rome.

What I meant was that it would have arisen within Italic tribes, i.e. after they settled in Italy. Since it is after the founding of Rome, it could have arisen among the Romans themselves. However the age estimate can easily be off by a few centuries, and perhaps even as much as a millennium, so it's too early to know for sure.
 
Sile, you do confuse as usual the script with the language. According to what you've posted some features of the Raetic script strongly suggest a Venetic source (a Venetic source for the script not for the language). The Venetic script is thought to be an adaptation of an Etruscan script. Anyway, all these scripts - Raetic, Venetic, Etruscan, Old-Italic... (Etruscan and Old-Italic are basically the same) have the same origin, the Euboean Greek alphabet in turn of an adaptation of a Phoenician alphabet. All these scripts were used by both IE and non-IE languages.
Marchesani has been trying to "prop up the etruscans" as older than anyone else in central and north Italy for Years...........I doubt what she states.


Let us correct something here .............what date is the earliest etruscan civilisation in italy?.................according to Elisa Polego , the oldest Venetic is 1155BC in Veneto

Clearly we have Umbrian as older than Etruscan.

Let us not call this etruscan script/alphabet anymore as we do not know when it was brought to etruscan lands, call it as it is:

The Euboean alphabet was used in the cities of Eretria and Chalkis and in related colonies in southern Italy, notably in Cumae and in Pithekoussai. It was through this variant that the Greek alphabet was transmitted to Italy, where it gave rise to the Old Italic alphabets, including Etruscan and ultimately the Latin alphabet.
 
Can anyone actually explain BB ?

Lets see,...............LBK in BB lands, is a few thousands of years older than BB and they where farmers and pot makers.

One would think that humans regardless of time period would have developed better pots over time...............that is just human advancement.
Can we actually state that NO LBK descendants with knowledge on pot making where not involved in BB pots ?
For Marija Gimbutas BB were Indoeuropeans and Proto-Celtic people.
 
In 2013 I explained in my Genetic history of the Italians that the ancient Italic tribes, including the Latins/Romans would have belonged primarily to R1b-U152 (especially Z56). I mentioned that the original Latins of the Roman Republic would also have carried G2a-L140 (specifically the L13, L1264 and Z1816 subclades) as well as some yet unidentified J2a subclades. I have just updated the phylogenetic tree of Y-haplogroup J2 and I came across a branch that appeared to be the ideal candidate for the Italic J2a1. That branch is Z435, immediately downstream of L70.

All L70 carriers today descend from a single patrilineal ancestor who lived about 5,000 years ago, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Central Europe from the Pontic Steppe. Indeed, a lot of J2a1-L70 are now found in Northeast Europe and Central Asia, which suggests an Indo-European dispersal from the steppes.

Z435 has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years, which corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Spain, France, England, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria or Tunisia, all regions colonised by the Romans. It would be very hard to explain how this 2500 year-old clade spread so far and wide around Europe if it weren't for the Romans.

Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old and, although rare, it is found today in places like Tuscany, Sardinia and Spain, which also suggests a Roman connection.


Thank you for the information!

However, I am (as always, of course) very skeptical about the interpretations you made about it. I am part of this subclade L70 > PF5456, and you can imagine I have been interested in it to the point of doing research whenever I can in my spare time. I also have realized that the distribution of this clade (L70/PF5456) could partially be explained by the expansion of Romans, as your Eupedia texts suggest and appoints to.

I have additionally been making comparisons from FamilyTreeDNA and National Geographic DNA Results and also have come to the conclusion that the subclade L70, and particularly PF5456, located at east of the Rhine river (mainly Russia and Ukraine) has an overwhelming percentage of Jewish men. I inferred this by comparing specific Y-DNA J2 databases and specific Jewish databases of said project.

One point in favour of your thesis, though, can be that there is, contrary to Eastern Europe, very few L70 and PF5456 percentage of Jewish men located in Western Europe, including the British Isles -> again, always based on these projects.

I will also add that I had the opportunity to talk with the Administrator of a FamilyTreeDna Project (L24), and he suggested, since he is responsible for the draft of J2-L24 trees to my knowledge, the place of origin of PF5456 to be “somewhere in Anatolia” with the age of “3400 +/- 600 years old” .
Furthermore, yfull places L70 around “6900/5200 ybp” and the same Administrator advances with Southern Turkey/Northern Syria hypothesis for the location of origin of L70.

Having said this, I am very reluctant to associate any Y-Dna Haplogroup with any specific ethnic/religious/national/linguistic group.
 
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Thank you for the information!

However, I am (as always, of course) very skeptical about the interpretations you made about it. I am part of this subclade L70 > PF5456, and you can imagine I have been interested in it to the point of doing research whenever I can in my spare time. I also have realized that the distribution of this clade (L70/PF5456) could partially be explained by the expansion of Romans, as your Eupedia texts suggest and appoints to.

I have additionally been making comparisons from FamilyTreeDNA and National Geographic DNA Results and also have come to the conclusion that the subclade L70, and particularly PF5456, located at east of the Rhine river (mainly Russia and Ukraine) has an overwhelming percentage of Jewish men. I inferred this by comparing specific Y-DNA J2 databases and specific Jewish databases of said project.

One point in favour of your thesis, though, can be that there is, contrary to Eastern Europe, very few L70 and PF5456 percentage of Jewish men located in Western Europe, including the British Isles -> again, always based on these projects.

I will also add that I had the opportunity to talk with the Administrator of a FamilyTreeDna Project (L24), and he suggested, since he is responsible for the draft of J2-L24 trees to my knowledge, the place of origin of PF5456 to be “somewhere in Anatolia” with the age of “3400 +/- 600 years old” .
Furthermore, yfull places L70 around “6900/5200 ybp” and the same Administrator advances with Southern Turkey/Northern Syria hypothesis for the location of origin of L70.

Having said this, I am very reluctant to associate any Y-Dna Haplogroup with any specific ethnic/religious/national/linguistic group.

The FTDNA L24 Project's administrator gives a considerably older date for PF5456 (3600 ybp) than Yfull (2800 ybp). I suppose that is the age of PF5456's appearance, not the TMRCA? In any case, the TMRCA is younger, and Yfull says only 2500 ybp. Even if it is 600 years older, that is 3100 ybp, which is after Italic tribes invaded Italy. It's very hard to see how it would have come from Anatolia and spread over all Europe within that time frame - unless PF5456 originated with the presumed Anatolian ancestors of the Etruscans. But in that case it would still have spread around western Europe and North Africa with the Romans.

If you look at the map of PF5456 (+ the STR results, as not all of them are indicated on the map) only (not all L70) on FTDNA, there are members in the following countries/regions:

- Scotland : 6x
- Ireland : 1x
- Wales : 2x
- England : 5x (Cornwall, Devon, Lincoln, Kent)
- Netherlands : 1x
- Belgium : 2x
- France : 1x
- Denmark : 1x
- Sweden : 1x
- Germany : 7x
- Italy : 3x (including Piemonte, Campania)
- Spain : 1x
- Portugal : 4x
- Slovenia : 1x
- Bulgaria : 2x
- Tunisia : 1x
- Lebanon : 1x

Obviously commercial tests have a strong bias toward northern Europe, and especially the British Isles, so the proportions are not representative. But I find it interesting that within Britain, the PF5456 is limited to Cornwall/Devon, Wales and Lowland Scotland, three regions where the Romano-British population sought refuge from the invading Anglo-Saxons. There is also a sample from Lincoln, which was one of the main Roman cities in Britannia, and one sample from Kent, close to London (already the capital of Roman Britain). In Germany, 4 out of 6 samples are from the south, which was for centuries under Roman control, with heavy garrisons. There is even a sample in Tunisia, and within the last 3000 years the only Europeans who settled there were the Romans or the French (+ a brief passage of the Vandals). Ditto for the sample in Lebanon.

There is also a Jewish cluster (BY268 subclade) in central and eastern Europe. Ashkenazi Jews are thought to have originated in Italy before moving to Germany in the Middle Ages, then eastward from the 16th century. A minority of Ashkenazi Jewish Y-DNA lineages could actually be of Roman/Italian origin (for example the R1b-U152>Z56>L4). I think that may also be the case for J2-PF5456.


The Z2177 subclade has a higher proportion of samples from Italy.

- Scotland : 1x
- Ireland : 1x
- England : 1x
- Germany : 2x
- Switzerland : 1x
- Italy : 7x (including Trentino, Latium, Sicily)
- Greece : 1x
- Romania : 1x
- Turkey : 1x
- Syria : 1x

Yfull.com has additional samples from Sardinia and Tuscany, so Z2177 really is strongly Italy-centred.

Considering that only some deep subclades are found in the Near East, I very much doubt that PF5456 originated in that region.
 
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Thank you Maciamo. I personally do not have the history bagage or that much time to refute or confirm this hypothesis, but you have my gratitude for this amount of effort. Regards
 
Maciamo, I tought we had reached some kind of consensus here. Is there a reason as to wheter the Eupedia text still refers the origin/TMRCA of these clades L70/PF5456 to "Indo-European dispersal from the steppes"? Or any relation regarding that region for that matter? Thank you
 
A friend of mine belongs to J2a Z386, is it included under J2 L70?
 
Maciamo, I tought we had reached some kind of consensus here. Is there a reason as to wheter the Eupedia text still refers the origin/TMRCA of these clades L70/PF5456 to "Indo-European dispersal from the steppes"? Or any relation regarding that region for that matter? Thank you

I have updated the description.
 
Hello everyone,

I have just tested several snp but I still do not understand everything well. So I am J2-CTS3601, subclade of Z435. I'm negative to PF5456. All possible SNP tests are completed (FTDNA). Am I blocked then? What can I do as additional tests? Are there subclades of CTS3601 still unknown? So I am CTS3601, were my ancestors originally from Italy? Or is it CTS3601 is more widely distributed than PF5456 (Tuscan).

Thank you !
 
Hello everyone,

I have just tested several snp but I still do not understand everything well. So I am J2-CTS3601, subclade of Z435. I'm negative to PF5456. All possible SNP tests are completed (FTDNA). Am I blocked then? What can I do as additional tests? Are there subclades of CTS3601 still unknown? So I am CTS3601, were my ancestors originally from Italy? Or is it CTS3601 is more widely distributed than PF5456 (Tuscan).

Thank you !

Hi!

I would advise you to talk to the J2-L24 FTDNA Project Admin.
Have you done the 37/67/111 marker /Big Y test? Maybe you could find a new branch under the CTS3601 line.
As to the origin, it has been suggested Anatolia, as it seems it is where it is more diversed (although suggested specifically for L70 and PF5456).

Regards.
 
Probably Etruscan. J2a has its highest diversity in Mesopotamia-Caucasus area.
 
Hi!

I would advise you to talk to the J2-L24 FTDNA Project Admin.
Have you done the 37/67/111 marker /Big Y test? Maybe you could find a new branch under the CTS3601 line.
As to the origin, it has been suggested Anatolia, as it seems it is where it is more diversed (although suggested specifically for L70 and PF5456).

Regards.

Thank you !

Yes I finished the Big Y and the 111 markers test too. I found many new snp's but unfortunately i found no new branch under CTS3601 and no matches. I think to be part of a group not yet discovered or not yet registered in the subclades of the tree J2.

I spoke with the administrator of the L24 group, the only thing he was certain was that L70 was originally from anatolia. He unfortunately could not help me more for my question asked on this post.

I am registered on yfull, i expect their results...
 
Congratulations on the great findings. I am J2a-L70, so is my Grandpa on the mothers side, in the Bulgarian Project there are like 15 tested guys who would be L70, me and my GrandPa are proven. There would be BIG Y for him and me, one in the Christmas Sale I guess and the other one like Easter Sale. For the rest Bulgarians aside my closest matches ( 0) in Family Tree are Italians, Catholic Germans, Ashkenazi from Poland and Ukraine, Swiss, Greeks for my GrandPa Bulgarians aside is like the same plus one Arab guy I guess from Lebanon and a bunch of Brits, I guess Romans sound like a logical source. Like in Ancient times some tribe from Levant for example went into Alps and mixed with R1b-U152/L2 guys and so become Romans or something.

Maciamo could you please make a Map ? :)
 
In FTDNA project for J-L24 haplogroup there is quite large number of L70+ samples (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L24-Y-DNA?iframe=yresults).

Branch of L70 with mutations: Z435, PH2725, P244.2 appears to be Jewish. Branch with mutations: CTS3601, PF5456, BY268 also appears to be Jewish. Why? Is it possible that J70 is from the Jews, not Italic people?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L70/ (I believe in young Earth creationism, so I don't think that L70 formed 7000 ybp or has TMRCA 5500 years). J2-L70 appears to be really good candidate for being the haplogroup of biblical patriarch Abraham!

J2-L70* was found in Jordan (Ajlun region). It appears to have all mutations common for Z435 holders without Z435. I suppose that it could be from biblical Ammonites (who were also descendants of Terah, the father of Abraham). J2-L70-Z435-Z2177-PH185 was found in Syria (Deir ez-Zor region).

On YFull tree branch CTS3601 has little bottleneck (3 mutations) and TMRCA 3300 ybp (the same as Z435). CTS3601* was found in Switzerland.

#M10220 from Saudi Arabia is negative for SNP Z435. Maybe it is Ishmael lineage? #14008 from Germany is also L70+ Z435-. #357685 from Spain also is L70+ Z435-. Maybe Israelites assimilated their "cousins" like Edomites or offspring of Keturah? I suppose that L70 comes from the Jews.

A result of L70 from Wales was found in Jewish DNA FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults (surname James, #50950). It is next argument for the theory that exapnsion of L70 was associated with Jews. I suppose that L70 (and in addition, ALL L70) in Italy and other European countries comes from assimilated Jews. YFull dates Z435 mutation as occurring about 3300 ybp, which is quite close to the time when Jacob and Abraham lived.
 
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HI there. My Y-DNA is L70+, Z435+, Z2177+... my documented lineage can be traced back to the 16th century in Abruzzo, Italy. Initially, like most, I imagine I was setting out to find my Italian ancestry via FTDNA's, Y-DNA as I wanted to parallel the document research I have been conducting for the last 14 years. The most recent discovery is from a will and testament of my ancestor where my current Italian "place name" surname was changed from the name Iaccobuccio (Jacobuccio, Jacobs). We were wealthy landowners as well as money lenders and tax collectors for the prince. Based on the findings of the FTDNA, L24 group and the current documents and change of surname(s), I am placing our family as converso, Jewish.
In April I took 6, Y-DNA samples from other men in this town. I focused on one surname, Melchiorre who we know is Jewish, then other surnames; Turchi, Persiani (his "clan name" is Noah and has ancestor names Ishmael and Judas) as well as Salomone, Tiberini, Troilo. One person, De Gregorio has already tested with Living DNA and he is J-Z2197, however, his lineage lives among the Salomone and Melchiorre in the 16th and 18th century. I took his DNA as well as I want it all through FTDNA and the results for now, are due in late June early July.
There are signs of a Jewish presence 4 miles of our town, and one ghetto which has been around since at least 1267 just 15 miles away, and another ghetto in a town called Lanciano which is about 25 miles from us. I am going back in a month or so and have 10 more samples I will be testing of other names I have been tracing through documents. We all listed Italian as our ancestry...I am taking over another account in the next town over, the family name, and clan name is, Zaccheas-- their DNA is J-M241. I have a feeling I will be finding a lot of converso's in these small towns.
 
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