davef
Princess
Probably bc they had access to better nutrition due to getting out of povertyThere's also the question whether IQ is actually stable. East German IQ for example increased from 90 to about 100 from the unification until today.
Probably bc they had access to better nutrition due to getting out of povertyThere's also the question whether IQ is actually stable. East German IQ for example increased from 90 to about 100 from the unification until today.
Insignificant they are direct relations. What about Western educated European Americans compared to Sub Saharan Africans who live in small villages?What about Ashkenazi IQ compared with Sephardic IQ? Side point, natural progression to extremely high verbal IQ would be to invent writing, either on paper and or clay tablets, like the Sumerians or Egyptians.
Probably bc they had access to better nutrition due to getting out of poverty
Gentlemen, all that stuff about visual IQ in Jews being low has to be false. Half of the Chess Grand Masters are Ashkenazi Jews. There isn't a more visually oriented skill. Or look at the number of Ashkenazi Nobel Laureates in science.
Also, Cochran doesn't seem to know that visual aptitude is tied to higher order mathematical reasoning. Einstein was like that. He reported he didn't learn to read until very late, but he could "see" his mathematical formulas in his mind. In fact, he "conceived his theory of relativity, which produced possibly the most familiarequation of all time (E = mc2), by visualizing himself riding a beam of light. Stephen Hawking hasexplained that “by losing the finer dexterity of my hands, I was forced to travel the universe in my mind,and try to visualize the ways in which it worked” (Johnson, 2014). My brother is a bit like that. He's told me he sometimes doesn't bother running a formula because he can see in his head the form the data results would take on a graph.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/literacynumeracy/lnspayingattention.pdf
"According to the National Research Council (2006), spatial thinking involves three components: “conceptsof space, tools of representation, and processes of reasoning” (p. 3). It involves understanding relationshipswithin and between spatial structures and, through a wide variety of possible representations (fromdrawings to computer models), involves the means to communicate about them. When a child rotatesa rectangular prism to fit into the castle she is building at the block centre, she is employing spatialreasoning, as is the student who uses a diagram of a rectangle to prove that the formula for findingthe area of a triangle is ½b 3 h. Spatial reasoning vitally informs our ability to investigate and solveproblems, especially non-routine or novel problems, in mathematics."
You can't make a correlation between Ashkenazim and Middle Easterners or Ashkenazim and Europeans. They're a case apart.
I've also seen results for Christian Lebanese and Palestinians which are higher than for their Muslim compatriots, and, in fact, are quite high in terms of world scores. Before all the chaos that descended on the Middle East Lebanese and Palestinians as a whole had high rates of attendance at university. If becoming a millionaire from nothing counts as intelligent, the Lebanese are very bright. They have produced an extraordinary number of billionaires for such a small population: one in about 500,000 if I remember correctly.
I don't know. All these populations are endogamous, but perhaps it has something to do with the extraordinarily high rates of first cousin marriage among Muslims in the Middle East, and particularly of the father's brother's daughter variety. I saw some complicated formula somewhere which shows this results in the highest inbreeding coefficient. Perhaps polygamy also has something to do with it? When monogamy is the rule, moneyed, reasonably intelligent families choose mates for their offspring from other moneyed, reasonably intelligent families. When a man can mate with as many women as he can afford, he'll presumably choose looks, no matter what the background or intelligence. Have enough children with low IQ people and you get exponentially more low IQ people, to be harsh about it.
Every very inbred, polygamous clan I've ever read about eventually produces a group of very low IQ people.
Some of our posters have never watched blindfolded chess, or people playing multiple games at once. Nor have they ever listened to chess experts themselves.
"Chess is highly visual. When the best players are playing at their best, they can see not only all of the piece interactions that convey protection and threats, but all of these interactions as they might change over the next several moves, or even further into the future. Some players can play blindfold chess with many opponents.Most of us have experiential and/or visualization/intelligence limitations that prevent us from performing at that level... For those of us who cannot see like the masters, our ability to predict future outcomes on the board is spotty at times, and seemingly non-existent at others. We cannot see the immediate future as well, or even the present at times. Our inability to see and feel all of the direct and implied current and future interactions between the pieces on the board means we often tread through minefields without adequate plans. And our games are won by the player who makes the smaller, least-frequent mistakes."
In terms of correlation with professions, high scores in visual/spatial intelligence lead to good outcomes in architecture, engineering, and physics in particular. That is a FACT. Someone might miss the "genius" cut off of 135, or not make mensa because of lower verbal scores, but go on to win Nobel Prizes in physics, i.e. Shockley.
Since someone mentioned that chemistry requires high visual spatial scores, and Ashkenazim have lower than expected scores, please take a look at the number of Jewish Nobel Prize laureates in:
Chemistry: 35
Physics: 44
It really isn't smart to make categorical statements which can so easily be falsified.
Some of our posters have never watched blindfolded chess, or people playing multiple games at once. Nor have they ever listened to chess experts themselves.
"Chess is highly visual. When the best players are playing at their best, they can see not only all of the piece interactions that convey protection and threats, but all of these interactions as they might change over the next several moves, or even further into the future. Some players can play blindfold chess with many opponents.Most of us have experiential and/or visualization/intelligence limitations that prevent us from performing at that level... For those of us who cannot see like the masters, our ability to predict future outcomes on the board is spotty at times, and seemingly non-existent at others. We cannot see the immediate future as well, or even the present at times. Our inability to see and feel all of the direct and implied current and future interactions between the pieces on the board means we often tread through minefields without adequate plans. And our games are won by the player who makes the smaller, least-frequent mistakes."
In terms of correlation with professions, high scores in visual/spatial intelligence lead to good outcomes in architecture, engineering, and physics in particular. That is a FACT. Someone might miss the "genius" cut off of 135, or not make mensa because of lower verbal scores, but go on to win Nobel Prizes in physics, i.e. Shockley.
Since someone mentioned that chemistry requires high visual spatial scores, and Ashkenazim have lower than expected scores, please take a look at the number of Jewish Nobel Prize laureates in:
Chemistry: 35
Physics: 44
It really isn't smart to make categorical statements which can so easily be falsified.
Well I mean you're saying that something defined by a test is lower than the test results show - that, assuming the testing isn't based on dodgy samples (which it isn't), is by definition impossible. That is literally more impossible than the existence unicorns, but anyway.
Chess isn't so much a visually orientated skill, you don't need to visualise space in a chess game, anybody can visualise a chess board. Chess is about primarily two things: how many moves you can think ahead to account for the multiple different paths your opponent can go down (so you need amazing working memory), and how creative you are (as otherwise you'd just be like a computer, relying on brute force - this is the bit that requires what we'd define as "intelligence"). The skill used in, say, mentally unfolding and folding a die isn't needed at all: chess isn't three dimensional.
And science isn't really that visually-orientated as the maths breaks that down very nicely, trust me. What you say actually furthers the evidence though - out of all the sciences Jews perform worst (still not bad though obviously) at Chemistry, which requires BY FAR the most spatial reasoning. Chess is by far the biggest overrepresentation of Jews in any intellectual field (it is something ridiculous like 50% of the greatest ever players, which even though (and I'm not being smug) Ashkenazim are smart, we can't be THAT smart, so culture must play a big role here too)
Here's the website with all the details btw: http://jinfo.org/
I think cousin marriage might be spot on though tbh for the reason of Middle Eastern lower-than-it-should-be IQ - I know people who work with deformed babies in the UK's NHS, and the vast majority have Muslim names, as obviously inbreeding along familial lines that close increases the chance of expressing nasty recessive genes. Long-term inbreeding is actually a good thing though, because it means those recessive genes are expressed more often and so can be subject to natural selection.
Does that mean that when it comes too psychometrics most advanced maths (other than topology and such) would belong to the category of verbal arguments?
Does that mean that when it comes to psychometrics most advanced maths (other than topology and such) would belong to the category of verbal arguments?
You literally just took that quote from a forum post (see below), all this after I just called you smart earlier on...
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/does-good-chess-require-visual-spatial-skills
Here's a proper source:
https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/805/1/Visuo-spatial_abilities.pdf
"The extent to which the acquisition of expertise in knowledge-rich domains, such aschess, can be influenced by general individual characteristics, such as intelligence, hasremained unclear. Some previous studies with children have documented significantcorrelations between chess skill and performance on some psychometric tests, such asperformance IQ (Frydman & Lynn, 1992). However, we found no evidence for acorrelation between chess skill and visual memory ability in a group of adult chessplayers (n=36, age = 28.4). This finding, together with other data in the literature,suggests that there is surprisingly little evidence that chess skill and visuo-spatial abilityare associated in adults. Thus, visual memory ability, and perhaps visuo-spatialintelligence, may be relatively unimportant factors in the long-term acquisition of chessskill."
Sorry Angela, before you get all sarcastic you should at least be correct. Oh, and I forgot to mention, at my old school I spoke to one of the UK's top chess players (who taught me maths), and he agreed with my logic and said pattern recognition and working memory are by far the most important factors. But that's unreliable anecdote, check out the source.
No need to be so arrogant in yourself, especially when you're incorrect, just chill out. Firstly being wrong about copper smelting and chastising all of us, now this - thank God this is an open forum
Yes, so everyone can see you ignore evidence that refutes nonsense you write, i.e. : CHEMISTRY NOBELS 35; PHYSICS NOBELS 44 for Ashkenazim.
Who cares if it came from a blog? Better than quoting a paper you haven't read carefully, or you hope others didn't read carefully, so you can mislead them. The authors, thankfully, are more honest than you.
The paper tested ONE aspect of visual spatial ability: Visual Recall.
From the authors:
"At first sight, our finding appears to go against some previous data that havesuggested a correlation between visuo-spatial ability and chess skill in a sample of chessplayers (e.g. Frydman & Lynn, 1992). How, then, do we reconcile our findings with theprevious data? We suggest two possibilities. First, our task tapped visual memory,whereas the performance IQ measure of Frydman and Lynn would have tapped a wider May 19, 2007 12range of abilities. Thus, some component of performance IQ, unrelated to visual memory,or even visuo-spatial abilities in general, may be associated with chess skill in adults. Forexample, chess players’ thinking time is limited by a clock, which is likely to foster thedevelopment of time-management skills allowing good performance under time pressure.These skills, in turn, are useful for several performance subtests of the Wechsler test,such the digit symbol or the block design tasks, which either are timed or award bonuspoints for fast answers (Mackintosh, 1998). Clearly, this is an important area for furtherresearch."
"Nonetheless, the study had a number of limitations. First, we only measured performanceon visual memory; we cannot be certain that chess skill in adults is unrelated to othercomponents of visuo-spatial ability. Future studies should collect richer data on spatial(and verbal) IQ of chess players to investigate this issue further."
"Third, our study was cross-sectional; itwill clearly be necessary to take multiple measures of intelligence and chess skill in alongitudinal study extended over many years to fully investigate the relationship betweenintelligence and skill acquisition in chess. Last, individuals with higher levels of visualmemory ability may be able to attain the same level of chess skill as other individualswith less deliberate practice; we did not get measures of amount of practice which wouldhave allowed us to investigate this.In sum, given the conflicting evidence, we believe it is too early to say whethergood visuo-spatial abilities are necessary for strong
chess play."
LET ME REPEAT THE LAST SENTENCE: GIVEN THE CONFLICTING EVIDENCE, WE BELIEVE IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY WHETHER GOOD VISUO-SPATIAL ABILITIES ARE NECESSARY FOR STRONG CHESS PLAY.
Dishonest argumentation is highly frowned upon here. Cut it out or you're out of here.
A much more recent mega-analysis of chest and IQ components. There is a correlation with visual spatial ability, apparently, although the correlation with numerical ability is still higher. That may be because of still unexplored aspects, however.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616301593
By the way, you're the one who said CHEMISTRY requires the highest visual/spatial skills, not me. Just wanted to point out you didn't quite think that one through.
As for there being fewer Jewish engineers than Jewish chemists and physicists, it may be for a similar reason to why my brother moved from mechanical engineering (fluid mechanics) to mathematics and physics: according to him, a lot of engineering gets very boring. People who like higher order thinking might move away from it. That said, most of his professors at MIT were Jews.
This isn't about stoking the ego of Ashkenazi Jews; it's about honest and objective analysis. Besides, no one should pride themselves on an accident of birth and evolution.
BTW, you really believe that I believe you're Jewish??? PLEASE!
I took two years of physics in college and the electricity and magnetism unit had quite a bit of 3-D visualization since you had to think along the xyz axis. As a CS major i got pretty far with my ability to picture algorithms and complex data structures in my head, so visualization does help tremendously in these kinds of fields.
If you're thinking of vectors then how much visualisation did you actually need? You just have to break each up into its i,j,k unit vectors and you just have to imagine three lines, one in each dimension. That doesn't require any major visual-spatial skills, even a dog could probably do it if it knew what vectors were lol