IJ*-samples in large study Iran

[Wilhelm]

I agree. It is becoming more evident know that haplogroup E could have been an re-introsion of humans into Africa, from the middle-east, read the theories of Dienekes which are pretty good. He also explains why are West-Africans more shifted towards Eurasian on genetic plots, in respect to the more archaich africans like the Pygmies.

 

[JFWR]

I do not know of any haplogroups that developed/formed/created in europe , only ones I know of developed in the middle-east, africa or western & central asia. The only things that developed in europe where subclades and branches of haplogroups.

I hope we are not saying that ...as an example, I1 and I2a are different haplogroups from a different "parental" haplogroup. To me they originated from I

I* developed in Europe.

 

[Knovas]

I agree. It is becoming more evident know that haplogroup E could have been an re-introsion of humans into Africa, from the middle-east, read the theories of Dienekes which are pretty good. He also explains why are West-Africans more shifted towards Eurasian on genetic plots, in respect to the more archaich africans like the Pygmies.

Maybe the migration involved DE people, this is what Dienekes' said recently:

D has a relic distribution in the Asian periphery, and E is in Africa. So, it might make sense if DE was part of a southern population that got split up as the Arabia became more desert like, causing some remaining DE folk to migrate west and some east. These groups of escapees coalesced into E in Africa and D somewhere to the east.

So if that's the case, E could have originated in Africa, although seems it still wasn't representative of the original inhabitants of Africa (likely akin to modern Pygmies, some San, etc.). Well, let's follow the thread, moderators can move this to another discussion if they feel like.

 

[Knovas]

I* developed in Europe.

I prefer to remain cautious concerning this for the same I posted about IJ.

 

[sparkey]

I prefer to remain cautious concerning this for the same I posted about IJ.

I'm almost there with you, Knovas. I'm not willing to say "I originated in Europe" or "IJ originated in West Asia." But I am willing to say "Based on current samples, I probably originated in Europe, and IJ probably originated in West Asia." Future samples, of course, could change this idea dramatically. Who knows? We could find a tremendous diversity of IJ branches in an ancient DNA study in Djibouti, so even your assertion that IJ is "Western Eurasian" could be wrong. It's just very unlikely.

I'll also reiterate that the finding of IJ* in Iran is additional evidence that IJ originated in West Asia. It doesn't prove anything, no. Certainly not that IJ originated in Iran in particular. But it does show that the center of diversity of modern samples tested so far is probably in West Asia. Before this study, it had been split between Europe and West Asia, and we had to guess which migration direction was more likely based on the general direction of human migration. Now, we've got a little more evidence for the West Asia->Europe direction.

 

[Alan]

As it has been said: IJ hasn't been found in any ancient populations period. The remaining IJ might reflect a historical population growth to Iran, or else the only remaining IJ left in the world which was once formed elsewhere.

Well as I already said, the reason for my reaction was not because some people showed their uncertainty for the origin of IJ in Iran. I mentioned myself that it is possible that IJ originated somewhere else (maybe in Eastern Anatolia or North Mesopotamia since this areas are known for their diversity of J*). What I couldnt agree on was that he tried to stretch the possible place of origin for Haplogroup IJ* over whole West Eurasia! Since the highest frequency as well biggest diversity is found in the area between the Balkans and West/Southwest Asia, and also historically there has been much more movements from West Asia into the rest of the World. It just doesnt make much sense (in my opinion) to assume that an origin in North Africa, Europe or South- Central Asia is as much of a possibility as in Western Asia.

 

[Knovas]

Who knows? We could find a tremendous diversity of IJ branches in an ancient DNA study in Djibouti, so even your assertion that IJ is "Western Eurasian" could be wrong. It's just very unlikely.

Yes, it's unlikely, but I see your point. If I'm finally wrong it's ok, but I don't think so xd

Well Alan...

North Africa it's very unlikely to place the origin, but not unlikely at all to find ancient IJ, that's what I said. My point since the begining has been that IJ was probably very widespread in the deeper past, what would make pretty difficult to know the exact origin. Like it or not, West Eurasia will surely be the best guess for a very long time (if not for ever). Remove North Africa if you want, it doesn't matter.

If you have a problem with a possible origin out of West Asia, just take it easy, because it will take so long to get the final evidence. And yes, IT'S POSSIBLE.

By the way, did you see that?

I* developed in Europe.

Because it seems to me you only see what you want to see, so I diceded to help you.

You're welcome

 

[JFWR]

Because it seems to me you only see what you want to see, so I diceded to help you.

You're welcome

I is a haplogroup. You said that you knew of no haplogroup that developed in Europe. The preponderance of data highly suggests I developed in Europe, deriving from a potentially West Eurasian (as you advocate for) IJ, which itself comes from an IJK somewhere in the ME.

 

[zanipolo]

I is a haplogroup. You said that you knew of no haplogroup that developed in Europe. The preponderance of data highly suggests I developed in Europe, deriving from a potentially West Eurasian (as you advocate for) IJ, which itself comes from an IJK somewhere in the ME.

my scenario is that IJ where together in the middle-east and headed towards the levant, I went north and established in southern anatolia and J in the levant. I then went through the balkans into europe ............but there is a problem with this in that KN states the illyrian I came from the ukraine........so ......can we say say I went through the caucasus alone ( without J) ........but then that does not make sense for the IJ union in south west asia