Religion In what do you believe OFFTOPIC about SVF and sabro

[strongvoicesforward]

If you guys don't like organized religion, you should come to my church on Sunday. I don't think you can mistake it for organized.

I`ve gone to church before and have been asked to not come back.

Sabro, would your preachers permit atheists to come and question the veracity of the Bible, givinig equal time to answer their questions as they would to the believers?

I know atheists go out of their way to get public forum debates set up on radio and in town meetings kinds of places, and in doing so they always try to invite local preachers. It is very hard to get them to come on board.

The point is, skeptics seek to engage the other side to discuss the Bible, BWOGer mouthpieces seek to engage only if time granted is quite lop sided so that it is preaching rather than discussing/debating the validity of the Bible.

Is it permitted in your church for outsiders to come and pose questions questioning the truthfulness, or are the conversations expected to be with people coming to the church with the purpose to discuss only after they have accepted it as faith?

If the latter, then why would you say, "you guys should come to my church..." -- you mean just to be preached to? We don`t care about how organized or unorganized it is so would never go to see that. But, we are very interested to go to get questions answered. In my experience, though, skeptics are not welcomed.

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btw: I think you`ve gone a whole two days without making a comment about the length of someone`s posts. Congrats on the effort. Hope cold turkey doesn`t give you the shakes too bad.

 

[Revenant]

Wouldn't all that depend on the level of respect a person showed while asking a question? A question can be asked and sound like an interrogation, while another is asked out of respect. I have asked questions respectfully about what I really didn't understand about the Christian faith, and I got back their gratitude for my sincere question, and they did attempt to answer it.

I'm not at all surprised that the church never asked you to come back. Bad karma.

 

[Revenant]

lol Tsuyoiko, glad to see you catching onto proper english so soon!

I'm not either. Embarrasment and exposure as fraud are uncomfortable mental states to be in -- besides dillusion.

Most of what you have posted has been covered in various other forums numerous times, and the true apologists like those I pointed you towards wouldn't have much trouble if any with most of what you have objected to. But I suppose you have just done in a two thousand year old religion in the space of your lifetime. Well done.

In part, we are seeing a microcosm of that here on the forum with "someone" wanting special protection granted to his topic of interest.

I don't agree, as I still say that respect can be given while debating. I know you have Maciamo's 'stamp of approval', but given your Interrogation techniques, and your subtle smugness and derision, I would say he is perfectly within his rights to say you are lacking tolerance, and I don't mean lacking tolerance in the definition that Maciamo spelled out, but in another sense, one that entails respect (look all the definitions of tolerance up, and not just the one's that suit you).

 

[Maciamo]

Wouldn't all that depend on the level of respect a person showed while asking a question? A question can be asked and sound like an interrogation, while another is asked out of respect. I have asked questions respectfully about what I really didn't understand about the Christian faith, and I got back their gratitude for my sincere question, and they did attempt to answer it.
I'm not at all surprised that the church never asked you to come back. Bad karma.

Believe me, I managed to ask questions very respectfully to the priests that were my religion teachers at school, but after a series of polite and respecful counter-arguments and the other students increasingly agreeing with me, the priests got quickly irritated and even threatened me to give me bad grades, or make me stay in after-school detention if I didn't stop asking embarassing questions.After a while, I was not allowed to ask question at all. :blush: This is what I call pedagogy, Christian-style...

 

[Revenant]

Simply put, lately it hasn't been my intent to discredit, or make light of a religion, but just a desire to get an answer that I can understand. Sometimes I didn't understand, but I don't press the issue if they cannot explain, and I may ask someone else later. But if you were polite, would you say it was similar to Strongvoicesforwards level or 'politeness'?

 

[Maciamo]

Well done.I don't agree, as I still say that respect can be given while debating. I know you have Maciamo's 'stamp of approval', but given your Interrogation techniques, and your subtle smugness and derision, I would say he is perfectly within his rights to say you are lacking tolerance, and I don't mean lacking tolerance in the definition that Maciamo spelled out, but in another sense, one that entails respect (look all the definitions of tolerance up, and not just the one's that suit you).

Why don't you just say he lacks respect toward Christianity, rather than say he is intolerant. These words are not synonymous. But you can't and shouldn't be respectful of everything. Should you have respect for murderers, rapists, pedophiles, liers, etc. ? Certainly not. So what is the problem with pointing out that Christianity has long incited to murder (crusades, inquisition...), prones slavery (in the Bible), or lies about scientific facts ? I think that it is in fact very praiseworthy to have the courage to speak out.

You may never have been discriminated against by Christians (e.g. school, job, government...), or being bullied by Christians for not believing like them. But I have, SVF probably has, and I know hundreds of people, from relatives to friends, who have. Just listening to some American politicians (esp. the Bush family) is enough to make you want to speak out and demonstarte that they are not right, and have no right to humiliate non-Christians. Therefore, non Christians have complete right of auto-defense in this regard, against anyone supporting the anti-non-Christian or atni-Atheist religious and political leaders. Look at our society. Who has the commands ? Religious freedom and tolerance, of the despotism of Christianity ? Why should the US still have mottoes like "In God We Trust" or "God Bless America" or a president who wants to strip Atheists of their citizen rights, in a country that counts 15% of Atheists or non-religious people (e.g. over 45 million people) ?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

... I managed to ask questions very respectfully to the priests that were my religion teachers at school, but after a series of polite and respecful counter-arguments and the other students increasingly agreeing with me, the priests got quickly irritated...

Yes. That is a true statement.

Xtians and their preachers give lip service to what the term discussion means and then end it at the first sign of frustration or that their answers are not being accepted as the right answers.

These Q&A sessions they insincerely enter into with a skeptic rarely lasts more than a few rounds of follow up questions. They repeat their mantras and then go into "shut down" mode.

 

[Revenant]

Why don't you just say he lacks respect toward Christianity, rather than say he is intolerant. These words are not synonymous. But you can't and shouldn't be respectful of everything. Should you have respect for murderers, rapists, pedophiles, liers, etc. ? Certainly not. So what is the problem with pointing out that Christianity has long incited to murder (crusades, inquisition...), prones slavery (in the Bible), or lies about scientific facts ? I think that it is in fact very praiseworthy to have the courage to speak out.

Intolerance has two meanings, one means lack of respect, the other means not putting up with something.

Do I have respect for murderers, rapists, pedophiles, liars, etc? They all deserve compassion, if not freedom.

I also disagree that Christianity as a whole, meaning the whole faith, the verses that all other verses are subjugated to, inspired crusades, inquisitions, slavery, etc. All verses are subject to 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your sould, and all your mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself'. That is the sum of the law and the prophets.

You may never have been discriminated against by Christians (e.g. school, job, government...), or being bullied by Christians for not believing like them. But I have, SVF probably has, and I know hundreds of people, from relatives to friends, who have. Just listening to some American politicians (esp. the Bush family) is enough to make you want to speak out and demonstarte that they are not right, and have no right to humiliate non-Christians. Therefore, non Christians have complete right of auto-defense in this regard, against anyone supporting the anti-non-Christian or atni-Atheist religious and political leaders. Look at our society. Who has the commands ? Religious freedom and tolerance, of the despotism of Christianity ? Why should the US still have mottoes like "In God We Trust" or "God Bless America" or a president who wants to strip Atheists of their citizen rights, in a country that counts 15% of Atheists or non-religious people (e.g. over 45 million people) ?

This is true, I cannot say I've been descriminated against for not being Christian (although I haven't been Christian for a whole of perhaps six months, and all that in Japan). I do not think it is right to have rights denied based on religious leanings. At the same time, even if I were the victim of discrimination (as I have been, being a Native American), I don't think it is something to get upset about, or to lose objectivity over. I will continue to do the best I can, and not worry so much about some minor discrimination.

As to the mottos, I think they fall under the ridiculousness of not being able to call a tree at Christmas a 'Christmas Tree'. I hardly see what is worth getting one's panties in a wad over 'In God we Trust', or 'God Bless America'. To me it simply reflects history, and nothing else, those that maintain otherwise are fighting a losing battle.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I don't agree, as I still say that respect can be given while debating.

Revenant, my which causes Sabro to be irritated is based on his sensitivites and intolerance due to the core beliefs which stem from what is written between the covers of his Jewish hijacked religion.

He is a hypocrite, and if you would like to see some hint of that where I put that forth, go to post #39 in the Slavery and Bible thread. I address his hypocracy in the 3rd or 4th paragraph there.

Stop feeling an urge to defend him. He is not the persecuted victim you think he is which is deserving to have special quarter granted to him when he couldn`t even offer the same in return in a different debate. In fact, he couldn`t call outright "flaming" for what it was and decided to ignore it and congratulate a part of the post "out of context" giving it some kind of reward for its bluntness.

He still has yet to face up to his childish display in that instance and just answers with smug retorts about it when I had pointed it out to him. Now, he feels he finds himself in a situation like that and keeps whining and whining.

 

[Maciamo]

Do I have respect for murderers, rapists, pedophiles, liars, etc? They all deserve compassion, if not freedom.

I certainly do not want you to do politics. :silly:

I also disagree that Christianity as a whole, meaning the whole faith, the verses that all other verses are subjectated to, inspired crusades, inquisitions, slavery, etc. All verses are subject to 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your sould, and all your mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself'. That is the sum of the law and the prophets.

It's easy to choose which part of the Bible "sums up" the book. Why haven't you chosen :

Jer 5:22 (NIV) "Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"

Cor 10:4-5 (TEB) The weapons we use in our fight... destroy strongholds. We destroy false arguments; we pull down every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God; we take every thought captive and make it obey Christ. [Isa 11:2-3]

Ps 34:11 (NEB) Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

Mat 10:28 (NIV) [Jesus] "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

.... or many many other parts of the Bible repeating that we should fear the wrath of god.

Frankly, why can you decide that the "love and compassion" part is more important (and washes out, so to say) the more numerous parts about how tyranical, sadistic and angry the bible god is ?

 

[Maciamo]

Revenant, my which causes Sabro to be irritated is based on his sensitivites and intolerance due to the core beliefs which stem from what is written between the covers of his Jewish hijacked religion.

Indeed, I could also say that I am deeply shocked by sabro's obstination to treat us as "lost souls" and his way of looking down on us as worthless Christians that will end up in hell as they deserve. But if we start with personal attacks like that, the debate would soon degenerate. In fact, it has stopped being a debate since sabro has avoided answering questions and questioning, and started feigning offense and sacrilege. Everybody can claim offense and sacrilege, for anything said. But we have seen many times that his were unsincere. On the one side he gets angry about SVF's use of totally justified acronyms (BGOD for "Bible God"), while he himself uses acronyms to refer to him, but changes the order of the letters, as if he wanted to insinuate something (why SFV instead of SVF ?). Just this shows that sabro claims offense for things that he does himself, but think are normal when he does it. This is basically what SVF and I are complaining about. With fundamentalist Christians, no discussion is possible. They shut themselves down when they can't answer an claim to have been offended. Pure hypocrisy.

 

[No-name]

Revenant, my which causes Sabro to be irritated is based on his sensitivites and intolerance due to the core beliefs which stem from what is written between the covers of his Jewish hijacked religion.
He is a hypocrite, and if you would like to see some hint of that where I put that forth, go to post #39 in the Slavery and Bible thread. I address his hypocracy in the 3rd or 4th paragraph there.
Stop feeling an urge to defend him. He is not the persecuted victim you think he is which is deserving to have special quarter granted to him when he couldn`t even offer the same in return in a different debate. In fact, he couldn`t call outright "flaming" for what it was and decided to ignore it and congratulate a part of the post "out of context" giving it some kind of reward for its bluntness.
He still has yet to face up to his childish display in that instance and just answers with smug retorts about it when I had pointed it out to him. Now, he feels he finds himself in a situation like that and keeps whining and whining.

I read this fantasy and had to wonder if the author was either deluded or writing on a different forum and perhaps confused. SVF- Are you smoking crack? This is highly inaccurate. As for the "flaming" incident you keep whining and whining about- YOU excused the flamer. I ignored it.

 

[Revenant]

Maciamo: If a murderer, a pedophile, or some other were apprehended, what would you then do had you the choice.

Also, I am quite surprised that you read those as the wrath of God. Fear in the Bible, and even according to some dictionaries, wich have a seperate definition for fear as it is in the Bible, all say fear simply means respect. Was hell a part of the Judaism (I don't know, I've heard it put forth that it wasn't)?

Strongvoicesforward, I would defend anyone to whom you interrogate in the way you do. I would defend a Pagan, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Liberal, or a Conservative. Sabro keeps a somewhat open mind, and his input is valuable here, I hardly see a reason to interrogate him. It is obvious he cannot answer all your questions, but that is hardly to say the answers to most of those aren't out there. You have yet to 'interrogate' the people I have pointed you to. They are probably much more ready for that.

Lastly, even if Sabro were hypocritical, that doesn't speak for all Christians.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

As for the "flaming" incident you keep whining and whining about- YOU excused the flamer. I ignored it.

Whining!? I`ve only mentioned it to point out the hypocracy you have been showing with your whining about being targeted disrespectfully (which you aren`t).

Does the Bible speak out against being a hypocrite? Is it a law? A commandment? Any kind of sin?

I`ve already asked you that several times -- why won`t you answer it?

 

[No-name]

What do you think I am doing that is hypocritical?

 

[Revenant]

Whining!? I`ve only mentioned it to point out the hypocracy you have been showing with your whining about being targeted disrespectfully (which you aren`t).
Does the Bible speak out against being a hypocrite? Is it a law? A commandment? Any kind of sin?
I`ve already asked you that several times -- why won`t you answer it?

Ughhh! Since when has the religion and philosophy forum fallen to such low levels? I cannot remember. It was commented by Atheists and Christians how different these forums were when discussing religion to other forums.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Strongvoicesforward, I would defend anyone to whom you interrogate in the way you do. I would defend a Pagan, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Liberal, or a Conservative.

Revenant, I am here for strong debate with strong arguments -- not here to give warm fuzzies and hummers. You can keep defending Sabro. Doesn`t matter to me one way or the other. The truth is, though, Sabro is intolerant merely due to the nature of his religion. You just seem to be fooled by it because he can cover it with some trite insincere smiling and a few superficial phrases. If you are a Xtian and hold to the general doctrines of Xtianity, then that would explain your unreasonable defense of Sabro in light of the name calling he has engage in on a routine basis -- not to mention his blatant hypocracy.

I only wish he were Catholic so a confessional could serve the purpose that would give him the opportunity to mouth the words of his hypocracy he has been showing. It`s hard to point it out any clearer than we already have been.

Perhaps this will help make it more clear for him:

[pong]Stop being a hypocrite![/pong]

 

[No-name]

I am "intolerant due to the nature of my religion."
Therefore ALL Christians are intolerant.

This is why I used the term bigotry before.

I like the little "stop being a hypocrite" thing dancing across the bottom of your screen. How do
you do that?

Can we stick to the topic at least on this thread?

 

[Revenant]

Revenant, I am here for strong debate with strong arguments

Then why don't you go where there are stronger arguments from the other side? I've already pointed you to the Philosophy forum. Also, you keep pressing Sabro to cede arguments, so why don't you? Why haven't you ceded one argument yourself. If he, or even I come up with a particular explanation that seems to fit, you just ignore it thus forth. Why don't you admit where you cede them from here on out, or should I highlight those for you till you do?

 

[No-name]

I don't believe in alien abductions or bigfoot. I do believe in American muscle cars with big V-8's. (I watch them with envy passing me in my tiny Honda Insight.)

I believe in recycling. And trips to the mountains to renew the soul.

I believe my dog dreams of winning the Iditarod. (You should see his feet move.)