Religion 'Intelligent design' teaching ban in the US

[Gaijin 06]

Just look at the simple things. You don't have to believe in God to believe in Intelligent Design, but you should atleast acknowledge the fact that you were created by someone.

Personally I give the credit to my Mum and Dad.

 

[kumo]

Ok I'm not going to argue because if you think christians are close-minded look over this forum, and re-read just how close-minded every single statemnt in here sounds. And to correct what was stated earlier Gravity is not a theory, it is indeed a law. All I'm saying is try not to think so deep into everything and over analyze ever single detail. There is so much extreme belief in the most absurd information, for evolution to be correct. And when talking about evolution I mean the evolution of man from primate. I'm going to end my post with this and if you want to talk anymore about it send me a message. If you take a beautiful piece of artwork, you cannot say it did not have a artist. I mean to say that overtime some force caused the brush, the paint and the canvas to come together to form a beautiful painting is absurd. The same can go for a new car, to say that there was not some type of intelligent group of people behind it carefuly overlooking each and every aspect of it is ridiculous. Now I know everyone on this forum who is strong on looking at this from a scientific point will say that you can't even compare the two but they all deal with creation, and design. The human eye alone is so complex, To say that the earth and moon were placed so exact to where the Sun would not fry us to death, or be so far away that we would freeze, and say that it was all just by luck? You don't have to be so complex when dealing with this topic. Just look at the simple things. You don't have to believe in God to believe in Intelligent Design, but you should atleast acknowledge the fact that you were created by someone. Anyways I've rambled on enough. I'm done with this debate on here though, if you really want to know more send me a message. Later

Hey Jcandres, can I nominate this for the Post of the Month award on fstdt's website? I think this even beats my all time favourite post!

"One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it. [emphasis added]"

 

[GoldCoinLover]

Ok I'm not going to argue because if you think christians are close-minded look over this forum, and re-read just how close-minded every single statemnt in here sounds. And to correct what was stated earlier Gravity is not a theory, it is indeed a law. All I'm saying is try not to think so deep into everything and over analyze ever single detail. There is so much extreme belief in the most absurd information, for evolution to be correct. And when talking about evolution I mean the evolution of man from primate. I'm going to end my post with this and if you want to talk anymore about it send me a message. If you take a beautiful piece of artwork, you cannot say it did not have a artist. I mean to say that overtime some force caused the brush, the paint and the canvas to come together to form a beautiful painting is absurd. The same can go for a new car, to say that there was not some type of intelligent group of people behind it carefuly overlooking each and every aspect of it is ridiculous. Now I know everyone on this forum who is strong on looking at this from a scientific point will say that you can't even compare the two but they all deal with creation, and design. The human eye alone is so complex, To say that the earth and moon were placed so exact to where the Sun would not fry us to death, or be so far away that we would freeze, and say that it was all just by luck? You don't have to be so complex when dealing with this topic. Just look at the simple things. You don't have to believe in God to believe in Intelligent Design, but you should atleast acknowledge the fact that you were created by someone. Anyways I've rambled on enough. I'm done with this debate on here though, if you really want to know more send me a message. Later

Indeed. Kumo, maybe when you die you'll go to hell, if there is one. I don't really believe in religion that much (How is christianity right when there are thousands of religions?) but its just ignorant you have to be SO SURE that your stupid scientific rules are correct, that you ignore everything else, and insult me, and (other logical theorties) in the process. Talk about being stubborn.

We humans have only existed for a relativly short period of time, the discover of evolution has only been around a few hundred years. And yet, in this fraction of time (Do you realize how old the univere is?) people like you are SO SURE it is correct, that you do not even acknowledge the possibility that there is a theory out there that better explains it, or even better, puts some type of creationer and science together as one (Which is what ID Tried to do)

There are many flaws with evolution. In fact, you ignored my post entirely, instead of saying what I was right on, you COMPLETELY don't acknowledge this, and begin to attack me.

Know the saying blinded by religion? Well, you are blinded by science. Seriously, why don't you at LEAST acknowledge there may be another 'theory' that is better than evolution?

Pure ignorance.

kashii:

 

[GoldCoinLover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

 

[Gaijin 06]

Know the saying blinded by religion? Well, you are blinded by science. Seriously, why don't you at LEAST acknowledge there may be another 'theory' that is better than evolution?

Pure ignorance.

There may be one. Intelligent Design isn't it.

Until someone comes up with a better explanation of how we got here than evolution, logical and intelligent people who believe in proof over conjecture will continue to believe it in.

 

[Gaijin 06]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

So you are allowed to believe in Intelligent Design but we are not allowed to believe in Evolution?

 

[kumo]

Indeed. Kumo, maybe when you die you'll go to hell, if there is one. I don't really believe in religion that much (How is christianity right when there are thousands of religions?) but its just ignorant you have to be SO SURE that your stupid scientific rules are correct, that you ignore everything else, and insult me, and (other logical theorties) in the process. Talk about being stubborn.

So, do you actually have any arguments?

We humans have only existed for a relativly short period of time, the discover of evolution has only been around a few hundred years. And yet, in this fraction of time (Do you realize how old the univere is?) people like you are SO SURE it is correct, that you do not even acknowledge the possibility that there is a theory out there that better explains it, or even better, puts some type of creationer and science together as one (Which is what ID Tried to do)

Unfortunately, theories are not constructed on what you would like to be true, but on evidence and experimentation. ID is NOT a theory.

There are many flaws with evolution.

Ok, cite them.

In fact, you ignored my post entirely, instead of saying what I was right on, you COMPLETELY don't acknowledge this, and begin to attack me.

Despite what your pseudo-liberal views may tell you, there IS such a thing as being a 100%, completely, utterly and totally wrong. That would be your case. You also seem to possess a strange idea on what "attack" means; that would be what you are doing now, certainly not what I wrote.

Know the saying blinded by religion? Well, you are blinded by science. Seriously, why don't you at LEAST acknowledge there may be another 'theory' that is better than evolution?

I do, in fact, acknowledge there may be a better evolutionary theory, it's being improved every year for Pete's sake! What you don't seem to grasp, though, is that what we have today, neo-darwinism, is a theory trying to explain how evolution happened, not wheter it happened or not, which is a fact.

Pure ignorance.

Eu que o diga...

 

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by Jcandres
Just look at the simple things. You don't have to believe in God to believe in Intelligent Design, but you should atleast acknowledge the fact that you were created by someone.

Personally I give the credit to my Mum and Dad.

I thought just the same thing.

The human eye alone is so complex,

I wondered when this ever popular quote would crop up. Glad to see someone didn't disappoint. I loath this argument because it is so wrong. The human eye, in fact any eye is not complex. You can reproduce what the eye does with a shoe box and some tracing paper, better known as pin-hole cameras. We can make electronic eyes that are much better than the human eye. All an eye is, at its basic form, is a narrow hole to let in light. Nature as a whole is not complex. Take each inividual item in a human body and you will find that it is easy and basic. When they are put together as a whole is when they become complex. It is a bit like chaos theory. As a whole you cannot see a pattern, it is just to random and chaotic, but when broken down it become simple and easy to see.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

So, do you actually have any arguments?

Unfortunately, theories are not constructed on what you would like to be true, but on evidence and experimentation. ID is NOT a theory.


Ok, cite them.


Despite what your pseudo-liberal views may tell you, there IS such a thing as being a 100%, completely, utterly and totally wrong. That would be your case. You also seem to possess a strange idea on what "attack" means; that would be what you are doing now, certainly not what I wrote.


I do, in fact, acknowledge there may be a better evolutionary theory, it's being improved every year for Pete's sake! What you don't seem to grasp, though, is that what we have today, neo-darwinism, is a theory trying to explain how evolution happened, not wheter it happened or not, which is a fact.


Eu que o diga...

What I'm trying to say is humans have only been around a very short period of time, it's impossible to prove that evolution is correct, it may be completely wrong. We have just begun on technology.

What bothers me is you seem so persistant that your right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm not going to argue with you why evolution is not corrrect, every theory has its flaws, and if I did try, you'd again, feel that everything I say (or anyone else that doesn't agree with you 100 percent) is wrong.

So its useless, really.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

I thought just the same thing.


I wondered when this ever popular quote would crop up. Glad to see someone didn't disappoint. I loath this argument because it is so wrong. The human eye, in fact any eye is not complex. You can reproduce what the eye does with a shoe box and some tracing paper, better known as pin-hole cameras. We can make electronic eyes that are much better than the human eye. All an eye is, at its basic form, is a narrow hole to let in light. Nature as a whole is not complex. Take each inividual item in a human body and you will find that it is easy and basic. When they are put together as a whole is when they become complex. It is a bit like chaos theory. As a whole you cannot see a pattern, it is just to random and chaotic, but when broken down it become simple and easy to see.

Mycernius, I agree with you. The eye can be reproduced. Also, not only are the humans very advanced organisms, heck, a cell is. It's incredible. Although evolutin is (probably) true (as far as we know, there is probably a better theory to describe it, perpaps a scientific theory relating to ID?)

But as other people have pointed out. What seems nearly impossible to me is just how chance we are. I mean, if evolution is true, and it wasn't created by something higher than us, than thats incredibly lucky. I'd say a trillion to one odds. Like someone else said, what are the odds that we are SO closet o the sun, without being fried? If we were a little ways farther away, we'd freeze. Too closer? We'd fry. Not to mention all the other coincidences.

Not to say evolution is wrong, I"m just *hoping* we can somehow think of a better theory maybe like ID. Isn't it depressing to realize we just happened by chance? Perhaps the driving force behind this is I've experienced depresssion and suicide attempts (4 times) and if I died, I'd hate to think that'd be it.

 

[kumo]

What I'm trying to say is humans have only been around a very short period of time, it's impossible to prove that evolution is correct, it may be completely wrong.

Not only it is not impossible to prove evolution is correct as it has been done so hundreds of times. Only bible-thumping creationists refuse to see this.

What bothers me is you seem so persistant that your right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm not going to argue with you why evolution is not corrrect, every theory has its flaws, and if I did try, you'd again, feel that everything I say (or anyone else that doesn't agree with you 100 percent) is wrong.

If you have any arguments just bring them on. I see no reason to think you are right when you don't even try to defend your case. All I have seen till now is your bitching on how I won't agree with any of your non-existent points.

But as other people have pointed out. What seems nearly impossible to me is just how chance we are. I mean, if evolution is true, and it wasn't created by something higher than us, than thats incredibly lucky.

Again, you seem to have no idea how statistics and evolution works. All your creationist's claims have been refuted to death, if you really are so "open-minded" as you claim to be try doing some studying before debating, it will do you good. This is a good site for starting:
http://www.talkorigins.org/

Like someone else said, what are the odds that we are SO closet o the sun, without being fried? If we were a little ways farther away, we'd freeze. Too closer? We'd fry. Not to mention all the other coincidences.

What???? Do you know that the difference in distance between earth's aphelion and perihelion is of a few million kilometers, right? We can barely feel any difference in temperature between these distances, so if we moved the earth a few more million miles to any direction there would be no difference at all for us. How is our location even remotely "extremely precise" for the occurence of life?

Isn't it depressing to realize we just happened by chance?

I will say it again: your emotions are irrelevant to reality.

 

[PRIZMATIC]

Christians of the early period (before the Byzantian acceptance of christianity) considered, that the person not alive - as exists without the participation during the device of him... And " the first revival " was considered - as to merge the person with "processes his created "...:blush:

 

[GoldCoinLover]

Not only it is not impossible to prove evolution is correct as it has been done so hundreds of times. Only bible-thumping creationists refuse to see this.

If you have any arguments just bring them on. I see no reason to think you are right when you don't even try to defend your case. All I have seen till now is your bitching on how I won't agree with any of your non-existent points.

Again, you seem to have no idea how statistics and evolution works. All your creationist's claims have been refuted to death, if you really are so "open-minded" as you claim to be try doing some studying before debating, it will do you good. This is a good site for starting:
http://www.talkorigins.org/

What???? Do you know that the difference in distance between earth's aphelion and perihelion is of a few million kilometers, right? We can barely feel any difference in temperature between these distances, so if we moved the earth a few more million miles to any direction there would be no difference at all for us. How is our location even remotely "extremely precise" for the occurence of life?


I will say it again: your emotions are irrelevant to reality.

A few million miles is nothing in space-time in the universe. And that, I highly doubt. Tell me, what do YOU know about this? Do you have a PhD in biology? In fact, I may just do this, to figure it out, since you say I'm so ignorant. It's all a matter of opinion, anyway.

It's worthless to argue with you because you think you are so right. You fail to see, there is ONE flaw in evolution? You really think its 100% perfect eh? We haven't even scratched the surface yet of technology (Considering how long we've existed) and yet you are 100% sure it is the correct theory.

 

[bossel]

no one has yet addressed the subject of the ancient Sumerian texts or that practically all civilizations on earth have "beings from the skys" mentioned in their "legends and so-called myths" as well as legends of the deluge.

Sumerian civilisation did not come out of nowhere. I think, the archaeological record already showed that. The oldest known (!) civilisation was in what is now Turkey. Several thousand years before Sumer.

Regarding the legends I already answered: It's perhaps because the seeds of religion were already growing before homo sapiens left Africa.

As of yet, no one has made that argument or broached that subject yet other than piecemealing flaws in Mr. Pyes essay.

Pretty much all his arguments are flawed, he only shows his lack of knowledge, then how can his essay be any good in proposing ID?

Do the above writings of Mr. Darwin not say we are descended from a primate or am I misreading what he, in his own words, has written? Please correct me if I am misinterpreting his writings as this is what I am interpreting.

Humans are primates. Chimps, Gorillas etc. are primates. Doesn't mean one descended from the other, but all are related.

 

[No-name]

Last time I checked, I am descended from primates. Every relative I know of for as many generations back is a primate... hey wait, my children are primates, too???

 

[kumo]

A few million miles is nothing in space-time in the universe. And that, I highly doubt. Tell me, what do YOU know about this? Do you have a PhD in biology? In fact, I may just do this, to figure it out, since you say I'm so ignorant. It's all a matter of opinion, anyway.

Let me ask you something: do you think it's only a matter of opinion whether the Earth is flat or not? Do you think it's a matter of opinion whether the sun is the center of the Solar system or not?
It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even realize how inane this kinda of statement is.

It's worthless to argue with you because you think you are so right. You fail to see, there is ONE flaw in evolution? You really think its 100% perfect eh? We haven't even scratched the surface yet of technology (Considering how long we've existed) and yet you are 100% sure it is the correct theory.

Again you refuse to make any arguments, expectable since you don't have any.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

Let me ask you something: do you think it's only a matter of opinion whether the Earth is flat or not? Do you think it's a matter of opinion whether the sun is the center of the Solar system or not?
It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even realize how inane this kinda of statement is. .

No, I don't think facts are matter of opinion. Let me say this again, because I believe talking to you is talking like a brick wall, and you believe talking to ME is the same way:
I DO believe in evolution. I've read about it, studied it, etc. I Understand the natural selection process, etc. But I also do NOT count ID or other theories as an impossbility. You do. You say, any other theory that is not evolution is ignorant and impossible. I respect your opinion, however, I wish you were more open minded. Do you disagree with me that a few million miles is nothing in space? Do you realize that light travels at 186,000 miles per second and there are billions and billions of lightyears in the universe. So, yes, 100 million miles is NOTHING in the vastness of the universe.

OK, maybe you're right, I'm ignorant. But I still believe the univere seems too coincidental. It's amazing, if you think about it. How many other planet with life have we spotted? (Scientist now agree that there probably wasn't water on mars. Go to CNN Technology section)










Again you refuse to make any arguments, expectable since you don't have any

 

[kumo]

I DO believe in evolution. I've read about it, studied it, etc. I Understand the natural selection process, etc. But I also do NOT count ID or other theories as an impossbility. You do. You say, any other theory that is not evolution is ignorant and impossible. I respect your opinion, however, I wish you were more open minded. Do you disagree with me that a few million miles is nothing in space? Do you realize that light travels at 186,000 miles per second and there are billions and billions of lightyears in the universe. So, yes, 100 million miles is NOTHING in the vastness of the universe.

It is a considerable difference in our Solar system, which is what matters in this case. Your logic seems to be inversed too; it's not our planet that adapted to life, but the other way around, so this discussion was pretty pointless to begin with.

OK, maybe you're right, I'm ignorant. But I still believe the univere seems too coincidental. It's amazing, if you think about it. How many other planet with life have we spotted? (Scientist now agree that there probably wasn't water on mars. Go to CNN Technology section)

It's strange you say that, because I think if we take into consideration how many trillions of planets we have in our universe, the chances of life NOT developing in some of them is one in a few googols. It's almost like a lottery- the chances of winning are indeed very small, but it would be even more amazing if no one won it.

 

[Pachipro]

Pachikobro, do you believe in ID, or religion, or evolution? It's hard to see.

Its funny how everyone says each other is WRONG. NO ONE is 'wrong', its just a matter of opinion.

Frankly I do not fully believe in either, but I am leaning heavily towards "Intelligent Intervention" as to mans true origins. And what you say above is correct in that no one is wrong. Not myself, not sabro, not you, not bossel, not kumon, not Gaijin 06. It is all just a matter of opinion and one's belief.

However, just because "science" or books say something is fact, one should not fully swallow it, but should look at other avenues and theories and thinking as "science" is more often than not, proved wrong with future research. Remember, it was once held as a fact of science and medicine that one should not wash ones hands before surgery a mere hundred years ago or so. Future research and findings proved that to be wrong. But it was believed by many back then as "science" said it was so. So was taking a bath and cleansing oneself. It was long believed in Europe that taking a bath was unhealthy and could lead to sickness and even death. But in the Far East it was held as fact that it was healthy and needed on a daily basis. Both sides argued with each other and said the other was wrong, but it was later proved to be fact that it was healthy.

As with myself, do not be dismayed or become upset by people who argue with you. Present what you believe based on your own readings and research and beliefs and respect what others also believe based on their readings and research. But READ what they have quoted or referred to to know where they are coming from. More often than not they will call you names and say you are ignorant of the "facts", but only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Pathological skeptics simply refuse to consider other theories and points of view even when there is evidence to the contrary. In todays world of science and religion, as in the past, no one is right or wrong as no one actually knows what the truth is until it can be 100% verified. Alot of science and religion today is only guessing based on research or faith and that research and faith is constanty being revised as more research is done.

 

[No-name]

I've learned that the "no one is wrong" proposition is a relativistic fallacy. The fact is, someone is right and the rest of us are wrong. That is not to say one point of view is less valid as a personal myth than the others. But when talking about origin myth, being wrong usually carries little or no consequence. Science and religion have been shown to be wrong in the past. Science seems to adapt with reservations, but somewhat easier than religion. Poplular belief seems to adapt based on the annual whim or the last best seller. I think on this thread- we began by talking about what is taught in schools- and it is not up to the popular or the religious to determine what is scientifically valid and should be taught in science class. It should be the widely accepted and universally valid scientific theories.

God bless you guys in the new year. Party safely.