i now found genetic distances and while i don't have a number for central italians, your statement again doesn't hold for southern italians and poles. poles are at a greater distance than iranians.
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Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermediate skin tone
- Thread starter Moja
- Start date
and the statement also doesn't hold for north italians.
Pax Augusta
Elite member
Welcome to Eupedia, you must have been so interested in this discussion to prompt you to join this forum yesterday.
Okay, let's play this little game. G25, latest spreadsheet, these are the Italians to whom the Poles come out first as a distance than the Iranians.
Distance to: Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.08014180 Polish_Silesian
0.09200685 Polish
0.09789870 Polish_Kashubian
0.15046994 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.15171313 Iranian_Central
0.15338477 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15365262 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15472333 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15751913 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15887296 Iranian_Qashqai
0.16104844 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.16229892 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16845875 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.16866233 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16896152 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17346095 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19606342 Iranian_Bandari
0.29755582 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.08166264 Polish_Silesian
0.09343504 Polish
0.09910107 Polish_Kashubian
0.15678230 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.15730871 Iranian_Central
0.15898469 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15988156 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.16060327 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.16184844 Iranian_Qashqai
0.16373766 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.16694894 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.16720576 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16758531 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.17375571 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17490087 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.18133749 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.20133458 Iranian_Bandari
0.30053251 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Veneto
0.08923277 Polish_Silesian
0.09987079 Polish
0.10729409 Polish_Kashubian
0.14859741 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14909649 Iranian_Central
0.15056458 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15202253 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15224527 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15322371 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15423562 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15763617 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15795375 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15908590 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16722524 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16830550 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17313204 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19562234 Iranian_Bandari
0.29726446 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.08756174 Polish_Silesian
0.09798281 Polish
0.10488799 Polish_Kashubian
0.15426078 Iranian_Central
0.15427086 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.15596012 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15735045 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15805500 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15865726 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15973002 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.16331926 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.16338655 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.16431740 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.17257633 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.17298740 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17857960 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.20033607 Iranian_Bandari
0.29924675 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Piedmont
0.09898823 Polish_Silesian
0.10930062 Polish
0.11675030 Polish_Kashubian
0.13925834 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.13944887 Iranian_Central
0.14111138 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.14279277 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.14317196 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.14397236 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.14483513 Iranian_Qashqai
0.14758110 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.14846050 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14974151 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.15818682 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16059043 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.16381680 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.18782100 Iranian_Bandari
0.29132897 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Northeast
0.07558261 Polish_Silesian
0.08625345 Polish
0.09370721 Polish_Kashubian
0.14933492 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14984524 Iranian_Central
0.15136802 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15234031 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15315978 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15473259 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15596955 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15949139 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15976737 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16194398 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.16720991 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.16750418 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.17347209 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19497499 Iranian_Bandari
0.29582370 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Lombardy
0.10378355 Polish_Silesian
0.11407810 Polish
0.12111824 Polish_Kashubian
0.14686036 Iranian_Central
0.14739051 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14879672 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15070725 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15125399 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15138470 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15175409 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15504847 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15510174 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15738391 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16599429 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16860867 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17153442 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19555027 Iranian_Bandari
0.29521035 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Liguria
0.09839304 Polish_Silesian
0.10754965 Polish
0.11533026 Polish_Kashubian
0.14218166 Iranian_Central
0.14269073 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14435432 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.14611988 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.14705574 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.14719776 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.14897886 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15089148 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15106926 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15213687 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16126237 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16321596 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.16662035 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.18927626 Iranian_Bandari
0.28552382 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Tuscany
0.10964653 Polish_Silesian
0.11972925 Polish
0.12747426 Polish_Kashubian
0.13247639 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.13269516 Iranian_Central
0.13410365 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.13614077 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.13622568 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.13634356 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.13729335 Iranian_Qashqai
0.13959849 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.14233038 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14339560 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.15107839 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.15605207 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.15681943 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.18422105 Iranian_Bandari
0.29404815 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Emilia
0.10409516 Polish_Silesian
0.11439828 Polish
0.12233733 Polish_Kashubian
0.13393339 Iranian_Central
0.13411636 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.13560176 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.13774310 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.13786571 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.13833271 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.13868648 Iranian_Qashqai
0.14202819 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.14279202 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14428868 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.15301269 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.15587477 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.15881416 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.18297378 Iranian_Bandari
0.28697678 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Bergamo
0.09732394 Polish_Silesian
0.10787577 Polish
0.11479981 Polish_Kashubian
0.15126827 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.15128062 Iranian_Central
0.15295431 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15468539 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15518521 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15580267 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15652488 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15896589 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15948620 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.16163516 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.17012439 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.17198676 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17552649 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19873894 Iranian_Bandari
0.29761398 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Umbria and Marche samples get a Polish sample from Silesia as first but not the other Polish samples. Then south of Umbria and Marche the Iranian groups start coming gradually closer, and the closest one turns out to be the one from Calabria, which is no surprise, as it is notoriously the one furthest south in the Italian cline, but not so close to Iranians as Greeks from the Dodecanese.
sry, i should have been more clear there. what i wanted to say is that his previous statement doesn't hold for north italians either. he did not talk about poles specifically, that was me. instead he first just talked about the "furthest european population from italians" which obviously is wrong. and turns out that for SOUTH italians already the polish are further or as far away as iranians. for north italians the same game can be played just not with poles but perhaps with estonians or belarussians. not sure about that though, you probably know better.
PS: i joined here because honestly i couldn't take it anymore how certain differences are constantly clearly overstated and this is very often, if not always, done because of an agenda imo.
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thejoker
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So let me understand, you are bothered by "certain differences" ( well there are and you can clearly see them with genetic distances , you want it or not you have to deal with it as me and other Italians here accept and we are fine we are not Brit or Dutch and are genetically distant from them) overstated by some people in forums ( insert-i can imagine by your tone and the one side scolding to HereTolearn-Italians here ) , but in turn you are not bothered by certain similarities overstated by some others ( insert Iranian\Middle Eastern users here) because "of course" agendas can only be one way, right ?
This, despite to those Iranian users who still rely on outdated infos and senseless comments like "in Iran now is colder than Rome" to prove a far fetched closeness to Italians , have been showed latest genetic maps, distances and what not.
Cool story bro.
MOESAN
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Latins were Italic people relatively close enough to Celts (and even Germans) at first, as their IE languages (post PIE) were without too much doubt inherited from the northern BB people of West-Central Europe. They knowed a particular evolutin later; we may suppose that their genetic links with Etruscans are due to tight contacts in Northern Italy or Austria... NO direct links with Iran, ancient or new. The Greeks had surely more recent ties with Iran, but all teh way, this last story is surey complicated and not a straight away travel.It is certainly possible that some Etruscans had adopted Latin language but Latin was the original language of the Romans.
1- I am not sure PIE was born on the Steppes, maybe even less for PIA, but I'm almost sure that the Western Europe IE languages came from these Steppes (Y markers, autosomes, geography, specific ties in some families of languages and so on). Let's stop with so wrong guesses without basis about what think others forumers.It is clear that you just believe in the Steppe hypothesis, there is absolutely no evidence which shows Italic people (not Etruscans) originated in the West-Central Europe, Latin is actually one of the closest languages to Elamite, as it was also mentioned in this thread, genetic studies have proved the arrival of Iranian ancestry in Sicily by the Middle Bronze Age 1800-1500 BCE.
History of Sicily: https://sicilianheritage.com/history/
Who were Elami people? Where was Sikan river? Do you know ancient Idali/Itali people? https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/hidali
2- the archaic specific links between say Celtic Gaelic and Indo-Iranian derived languages can prove only that their links were broken long ago - as a rule, the "brother" dialects stayed in the core of an ancient language, linguistically and geographically, share innovations rather than some specific archaic terms. And Italic languages show tight numerous links with Celtic as a said.
3- Do stop with this miraculous etymologic logorrhea of names presenting often too close phonetic similarities for languages separated since long ago; even if some of your finds among them could deserve some attention they would just prove that an ancient community of language has existed among IE languages, nothing more. It's only the proof that IE is not a waken dream. Latin and Elamite? Yet some magic linguistic? There are so much theories walking here and there about languages without any solid basis, which has discredited Linguistic as a whole. (Basque-IE, Etuscan-IE ...). I can show you some recent phonetic proximities between words which began very different even at a recent level ...
4- Some of the ancient people of Sicily are considered by serious scientists as come from Northern Italy and akin to ancient Ligurians. Not directly from Iran or around Iran.
i'm correcting false statements by HereToLearn. does he stand for all Italians here? we know iranians are not italians but if you want to make your point that iranians and italians are not as similar as Moja maybe wants it to be, why would you start to make things up? like, what is supposed to be his or other middle eastern peoples agenda here? to turn iranians into europeans?So let me understand, you are bothered by "certain differences" ( well there are and you can clearly see them with genetic distances , you want it or not you have to deal with it as me and other Italians here accept and we are fine we are not Brit or Dutch and are genetically distant from them) overstated by some people in forums ( insert-i can imagine by your tone and the one side scolding to HereTolearn-Italians here ) , but in turn you are not bothered by certain similarities overstated by some others ( insert Iranian\Middle Eastern users here) because "of course" agendas can only be one way, right ?
This, despite to those Iranian users who still rely on outdated infos and senseless comments like "in Iran now is colder than Rome" to prove a far fetched closeness to Italians , have been showed latest genetic maps, distances and what not.
Cool story bro.
also this thread immediately started with "inferiority complexes" of some iranians and how this "inferiority complex stems from the fact that today, neither of those groups phenotypically resemble and barely genetically resemble the people that brought to them their civilization/culture." which also is a ridiculous statement from Granzon. and from there it derailed.
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thejoker
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Iranians and Italians are not the same people and that's a fact, even taking in consideration Estonians or not, so you are grasping at straw overstressing a comment of Heretolearn, only God knows why . He could have said that North and Central Italians are Belgians or French or even Brits going with your extreme meticolouseness in measuring distances and get pissed off by, but he didn't.
There isn't much to add here.
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sure but then you could say why did HereToLearn overstress the comment of Moja and help Granzon turn this thread into what it became?
noone ever said that italians and iranians are the same people btw.
thejoker
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He didn't overstress anything, we are in an Anthro\Genetic forum and that's the role of these kind of forums when someone say absurd theories based on nothing trying to pass them as true . Heretolearn may have not considered Estonians and Belarussians in measuring distances but the point still stand and Italians are not Iranians.
If you don't like false stuff getting debunked try some other forums, i don't know what to tell you.
i literally just debunked false stuff and you complained. and the way i see it HereToLearn did not argue against the point that italians and iranians are the same because i can't see where anyone tried to make that point.
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it's not clear where the proto indo europeans came from. you are essentially doing the same thing the other way around. one thing is clear, blonde hair light skin has nothing to do with proto indo europeans.Wow, a lot of people in this thread are too well mannered/civilized to the OP considering his intent with this thread.
The original intent of this thread was the OP trying to insinuate that because PIE had dark hair and brown eyes, that means that people with blonde hair and blue eyes are not genetically Indo-European. Of course, he is sneakily trying to insinuate that people from Northern/North-Western Europe are not genetically the decedents of Indo-Europeans, which is ridiculous considering that those regions of Europe generally have the highest level of Indo-European ancestry in the world.
At the same time, he posts pictures of anomalous people from Iran trying to pass those people off as the general phenotype of Iran and of Iranians. After this attempt was denied by posting actual representative photos of the generic Iranian phenotype, he tries to latch himself onto European-ness/White-ness by associating Iranians with Italians and was provided with genetic evidence to the contrary. I'm going off of a hunch but I suspect that OP is an Iranian in Germany and is suffering from an inferiority complex from blonde hair/blue eyed Germans.
Additionally...
I've seen a trend of these types of people all over social media from Reddit to Instagram in which whenever any discussion of Indo-Europeans comes along, they start spreading false information regarding Indo-Europeans. Their consistent spam of delusional/false information eventually leads to ridiculous ideas being adopted by the mainstream such as how Europeans originate from Indians/Iranians or how Europeans stole Indo-European symbols/myths/language from India/Iran when ironically, those cultures/symbols/genetics/languages came into those lands from people by way of Europe. This type of misinformation generally comes from BJP Hindu-nationalists or identity-crisis having Iranians/Turks/mestizos from Latin America. They attack Europeans/White people but at the same time try to associate themselves as European/White people (mestizos attacking White people (for example: Anglos) while claiming to be Mediterranean Europeans/"Roman Empire posting" meanwhile those same Anglos they attack are more related to Romans than the mestizos themselves).
Honestly, the type of stuff OP is trying to spew/sneak into the general discourse should always be corrected by genetics/history, not be tolerated at all and should be shown derision because of it leads to the unaware actually believing in it due to the repetitive spam of the delusion/lie.
Edit: Also to add, the type of people mentioned above like to hide their intent by using jargon like White-supremacy, racism etc. It's so blatantly obvious their intent.
thejoker
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Complained ?? what are you on dude, you just keep whining on distances and useless stuff in the greater scheme and get over a lot of BS said by the op, that's what i said, never said Estonians and Belarussians are not as far like Iranians.
Maybe you still didn't understand but it's the op that says Italians and Iranians are almost the same, i never accused you.
The point is that you "accidentally" feel the need to register to just scold Heretolearn and not the tons of bs said by the OP. Let's see if you get it now.
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Pax Augusta
Elite member
I continue to play with you, but a necessary premise must be made. Estonians, and this also true for Latvians, are an extremely small population, only one million individuals, so it is clear that it is a rather homogeneous population likely without significant external influences grown demographically in the last 1000 years with a lot of initial inbreeding, while the Belarusians are a population not as small as the Estonians, but still small when compared to the rest of Europe, 5 million people, an Italian region, Lombardy alone has 10 million residents. If one uses Estonians and Belarusians, unsurprisingly, the distances increase a little, but Estonians still come out as first (compared to Iranians) to northern Italians in the Alps and Pre-Alps and north-eastern Italy, while Belarusians come out first to all populations in northern Italy, including those in the Po Valley, up to the transitional area between northern and central Italy.
Using only samples from northern Europeans. If one also used those of central Europeans obviously they would be closer.
Distance to: Italian_Northeast
0.06353550 English_Cornwall
0.06413291 English
0.06823538 Scottish
0.07178408 Irish
0.07291111 Danish
0.07683866 Norwegian
0.07977021 Icelandic
0.08204455 Swedish
0.10567879 Belarusian
0.11194707 Lithuanian_PA
0.11511841 Finnish_Southwest
0.11599527 Lithuanian_VA
0.12021859 Finnish_Southeast
0.12265527 Estonian
0.12340190 Lithuanian_RA
0.12394872 Lithuanian_VZ
0.12417967 Finnish_Central
0.13062067 Lithuanian_SZ
0.13195455 Lithuanian_PZ
0.13374281 Finnish_North
0.13442842 Latvian
0.13580287 Finnish_East
0.14933492 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14984524 Iranian_Central
0.15136802 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15234031 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15315978 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15473259 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15596955 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15949139 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15976737 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16194398 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.16720991 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.16750418 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.17347209 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19497499 Iranian_Bandari
0.29582370 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Veneto
0.07232135 English_Cornwall
0.07328545 English
0.07760351 Scottish
0.08065979 Irish
0.08347689 Danish
0.08707951 Norwegian
0.08971817 Icelandic
0.09360148 Swedish
0.11931811 Belarusian
0.12547561 Lithuanian_PA
0.12791779 Finnish_Southwest
0.12940063 Lithuanian_VA
0.13271096 Finnish_Southeast
0.13622428 Estonian
0.13699363 Lithuanian_RA
0.13712615 Finnish_Central
0.13745436 Lithuanian_VZ
0.14401254 Lithuanian_SZ
0.14532363 Lithuanian_PZ
0.14658014 Finnish_North
0.14785736 Latvian
0.14843090 Finnish_East
0.14859741 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14909649 Iranian_Central
0.15056458 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15202253 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15224527 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15322371 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15423562 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15763617 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15795375 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15908590 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16722524 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16830550 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17313204 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19562234 Iranian_Bandari
0.29726446 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italian_Emilia
0.08686925 English_Cornwall
0.08787010 English
0.09163072 Scottish
0.09435963 Irish
0.09851930 Danish
0.10180258 Norwegian
0.10406476 Icelandic
0.10860178 Swedish
0.13321609 Belarusian
0.13393339 Iranian_Central
0.13411636 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.13560176 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.13774310 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.13786571 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.13833271 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.13868648 Iranian_Qashqai
0.13986499 Finnish_Southwest
0.14008667 Lithuanian_PA
0.14202819 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.14279202 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14427269 Lithuanian_VA
0.14428868 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.14612215 Finnish_Southeast
0.14916122 Finnish_Central
0.15071148 Estonian
0.15148581 Lithuanian_RA
0.15206147 Lithuanian_VZ
0.15301269 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.15587477 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.15751108 Finnish_North
0.15881416 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.15883203 Lithuanian_SZ
0.15986441 Lithuanian_PZ
0.16060157 Finnish_East
0.16255145 Latvian
0.18297378 Iranian_Bandari
0.28697678 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Now another consideration is necessary. Modern Italians, who form a rather large cluster, are a population that ranges between the Southwestern European cluster, with populations in the Alps that are closer to the Western cluster of Central Europe, and the cluster of Southeastern Europe, which ends in the Greek populations of the Aegean islands (and then here we would have to open a debate on the Greek Cypriots but we would go too long). If one takes the Scandinavian Northern European populations and those of Northwestern Europe (English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish), on the other hand, the distances decrease with the Italians, so much so that English Cornish come out as first even to the Molisans, who are a southern Italian population. Scandinavian peoples, even Icelanders, and British and Irish peoples are closer to Italians, up to central Italians, than Iranians.
Distance to: Italian_Molise_Southern_Italy
0.11509182 English_Cornwall
0.11531459 Iranian_Central
0.11555356 English
0.11558438 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.11613177 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.11650296 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.11884846 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.11899370 Scottish
0.11971937 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.11980590 Iranian_Qashqai
0.11988737 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.12002173 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.12172670 Irish
0.12531614 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.12535523 Danish
0.12876736 Norwegian
0.13114499 Icelandic
0.13423664 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.13457128 Swedish
0.13960855 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.14223628 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.15374035 Belarusian
0.16094937 Lithuanian_PA
0.16237481 Finnish_Southwest
0.16481061 Lithuanian_VA
0.16787909 Finnish_Southeast
0.16809043 Iranian_Bandari
0.17081259 Finnish_Central
0.17146956 Lithuanian_RA
0.17224312 Estonian
0.17320391 Lithuanian_VZ
0.17844323 Finnish_North
0.17925455 Lithuanian_SZ
0.18067489 Finnish_East
0.18095446 Lithuanian_PZ
0.18302715 Latvian
0.27655692 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
If one takes the Iron Age and Bronze age Central Italian samples (Central_Italy_Etruria_BA, Italy_IA_Roman_Republic and Italy_Etruscans_IA), all populations, including Finns, Estonians, Latvians, come out first than the populations of Iran. Whereas if one takes the Bronze Age and Iron Age Greek samples, the opposite is true. Ancient Greeks are closer to the Iranians since the Bronze Age than Bronze and Iron_Age Central Italy, and while this is not true for some modern populations in northern Greece. Given that as is known in southern Italy in the Iron Age there was a strong Greek colonization, given that in some areas of southern Italy as early as the Bronze Age there is some signal traceable to the Mycenaean world, it is obvious what this Eastern Mediterranean signal is due first to in the Italians, then of course we could talk about Imperial Rome. And there would also be a discussion to be opened on the possible role in the ethnogenesis of the Italians of the Bronze Age and Iron Age northern Balkans. But I can't spend the whole day on a forum. In any case, the most important genetic differences between northern and southern Europeans are formed between Bronze and Iron Age, due to the distribution of Steppe-related ancestry and to the higher proportion of EEF surviving in southern Europe.
No one here denies this Aegean/Eastern Med influence in Italians, but claiming that Italians and Iranians are the same people is a long way off.
Distance to: Central_Italy_Etruria_BA.SG
0.08292191 English_Cornwall
0.08532126 English
0.09028302 Scottish
0.09328926 Irish
0.09705485 Danish
0.09952335 Norwegian
0.10147045 Icelandic
0.10717949 Swedish
0.13633491 Belarusian
0.14011986 Finnish_Southwest
0.14235769 Lithuanian_PA
0.14567608 Lithuanian_VA
0.14839630 Finnish_Southeast
0.15079175 Estonian
0.15151362 Finnish_Central
0.15232260 Lithuanian_VZ
0.15383218 Lithuanian_RA
0.15904553 Lithuanian_SZ
0.15953036 Lithuanian_PZ
0.15954074 Finnish_North
0.16297340 Latvian
0.16399020 Finnish_East
0.18635974 Iranian_Central
0.18734206 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.18859992 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.18990420 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.18996881 Iranian_Qashqai
0.19039373 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.19096468 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.19131792 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.19522389 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.19631251 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.20547423 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.20550154 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.21143846 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.23081984 Iranian_Bandari
0.31908065 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italy_Etruscan_Tarquinia_IA.SG
0.06732705 English_Cornwall
0.06924267 English
0.07416588 Scottish
0.07736324 Irish
0.08091083 Danish
0.08385949 Norwegian
0.08639755 Icelandic
0.09159111 Swedish
0.12205716 Belarusian
0.12704949 Finnish_Southwest
0.12795294 Lithuanian_PA
0.13166842 Lithuanian_VA
0.13362389 Finnish_Southeast
0.13695179 Estonian
0.13743602 Finnish_Central
0.13877276 Lithuanian_VZ
0.13967550 Lithuanian_RA
0.14556792 Lithuanian_SZ
0.14635472 Lithuanian_PZ
0.14650253 Finnish_North
0.14951595 Latvian
0.14968997 Finnish_East
0.17141347 Iranian_Central
0.17171298 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.17335843 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.17471351 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.17551394 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.17572545 Iranian_Qashqai
0.17710391 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.17902026 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.18083647 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.18148981 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.18926707 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.19001882 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.19591144 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.21591576 Iranian_Bandari
0.30912192 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Italy_IA_Roman_Republic.SG
0.08404847 English_Cornwall
0.08584997 English
0.09088648 Scottish
0.09374325 Irish
0.09773868 Danish
0.10053849 Norwegian
0.10313414 Icelandic
0.10841174 Swedish
0.13731882 Belarusian
0.14329291 Lithuanian_PA
0.14332535 Finnish_Southwest
0.14691248 Lithuanian_VA
0.14883672 Finnish_Southeast
0.15297039 Estonian
0.15331051 Finnish_Central
0.15440694 Lithuanian_VZ
0.15478916 Lithuanian_RA
0.16105894 Lithuanian_SZ
0.16215536 Lithuanian_PZ
0.16227644 Finnish_North
0.16481816 Finnish_East
0.16502786 Latvian
0.17123959 Iranian_Central
0.17182006 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.17314717 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.17393017 Iranian_Qashqai
0.17481993 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.17521667 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.17540088 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.17564500 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.17966152 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.18144612 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.18983759 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.19120571 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.19620797 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.21741781 Iranian_Bandari
0.31163466 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
0.15912278 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.16929622 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.17206373 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.17226045 Iranian_Qashqai
0.17469903 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.17488263 Iranian_Central
0.17660567 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.17793288 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.18121480 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.18375029 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.19007678 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.19384099 English_Cornwall
0.19483528 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.19535584 English
0.19980960 Scottish
0.20260847 Irish
0.20626187 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.20653486 Danish
0.21008427 Norwegian
0.21261777 Icelandic
0.21666229 Swedish
0.22695988 Iranian_Bandari
0.23370194 Belarusian
0.24042551 Lithuanian_PA
0.24411867 Lithuanian_VA
0.24557118 Finnish_Southwest
0.25035977 Lithuanian_RA
0.25046640 Finnish_Southeast
0.25224175 Lithuanian_VZ
0.25348460 Estonian
0.25457686 Finnish_Central
0.25846456 Lithuanian_SZ
0.26084098 Lithuanian_PZ
0.26192713 Finnish_North
0.26306749 Latvian
0.26371296 Finnish_East
0.32018115 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
0.13550336 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14050315 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.14351968 Iranian_Qashqai
0.14364844 Iranian_Central
0.14385838 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.14395152 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.14463105 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14676472 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.14945073 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15277380 English_Cornwall
0.15340876 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.15390719 English
0.15827543 Scottish
0.16052797 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16115124 Irish
0.16466616 Danish
0.16583288 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.16833723 Norwegian
0.17068018 Icelandic
0.17396238 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.17458518 Swedish
0.19243918 Belarusian
0.19694212 Iranian_Bandari
0.19920794 Lithuanian_PA
0.20286039 Lithuanian_VA
0.20395525 Finnish_Southwest
0.20843116 Finnish_Southeast
0.20934847 Lithuanian_RA
0.21127022 Lithuanian_VZ
0.21194940 Estonian
0.21267737 Finnish_Central
0.21746231 Lithuanian_SZ
0.21969619 Lithuanian_PZ
0.22042382 Finnish_North
0.22178784 Latvian
0.22186780 Finnish_East
0.29757983 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean
0.14589714 English_Cornwall
0.14744660 English
0.14774623 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.15197481 Scottish
0.15469925 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.15484672 Irish
0.15687649 Iranian_Central
0.15712174 Iranian_Qashqai
0.15773529 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.15775650 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.15822769 Danish
0.15836480 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.16032320 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.16184889 Norwegian
0.16239933 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.16463954 Icelandic
0.16695649 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16843644 Swedish
0.17403939 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.17986363 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.18590206 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.18719299 Belarusian
0.19394767 Lithuanian_PA
0.19746278 Lithuanian_VA
0.19876993 Finnish_Southwest
0.20365474 Finnish_Southeast
0.20403236 Lithuanian_RA
0.20568828 Lithuanian_VZ
0.20641995 Estonian
0.20798925 Finnish_Central
0.20946463 Iranian_Bandari
0.21202969 Lithuanian_SZ
0.21422606 Lithuanian_PZ
0.21611638 Finnish_North
0.21635077 Latvian
0.21770049 Finnish_East
0.30887135 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos
0.13306974 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.13339942 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.13412696 Iranian_Central
0.13533209 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.13637410 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.13744406 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.13913232 Iranian_Qashqai
0.13934892 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.14062848 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.14236799 English_Cornwall
0.14378784 English
0.14387595 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.14754665 Scottish
0.15020486 Irish
0.15124620 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.15453024 Danish
0.15659102 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.15811534 Norwegian
0.15987766 Icelandic
0.16197691 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.16449384 Swedish
0.18237161 Iranian_Bandari
0.18320215 Belarusian
0.19112040 Lithuanian_PA
0.19138554 Finnish_Southwest
0.19528579 Lithuanian_VA
0.19951844 Finnish_Southeast
0.20090063 Finnish_Central
0.20141983 Lithuanian_RA
0.20226101 Lithuanian_VZ
0.20238354 Estonian
0.20746980 Finnish_North
0.20902559 Lithuanian_SZ
0.20999605 Lithuanian_PZ
0.21197209 Finnish_East
0.21310485 Latvian
0.27097468 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
Distance to: Greece_Delphi_IA
0.13487912 Iranian_Arab_Khuzestan
0.14621744 Iranian_Lor_Khorramabad
0.14701136 Iranian_Qashqai
0.14865787 Iranian_Central
0.14874534 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.14896498 Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran
0.14931063 Iranian_Lor_Bakhtiari
0.15110889 Iranian_Persian_Fars
0.15404799 Iranian_Persian_Yazd
0.15419005 English_Cornwall
0.15539101 English
0.15800857 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.15956471 Scottish
0.16204608 Irish
0.16448654 Iranian_Mazandarani_o
0.16547999 Danish
0.16878059 Norwegian
0.17133086 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.17222897 Icelandic
0.17558502 Swedish
0.17657761 Iranian_Persian_Khorasan
0.19544679 Belarusian
0.20005530 Iranian_Bandari
0.20111033 Lithuanian_PA
0.20469714 Lithuanian_VA
0.20729246 Finnish_Southwest
0.20828523 Finnish_Southeast
0.21127684 Lithuanian_RA
0.21366052 Estonian
0.21403861 Lithuanian_VZ
0.21443906 Finnish_Central
0.21957582 Lithuanian_SZ
0.22193362 Finnish_East
0.22240784 Lithuanian_PZ
0.22325308 Finnish_North
0.22359751 Latvian
0.30126236 Iranian_Bandari_Zanji
One must be honest to the core. Not only certain differences are overstated but also certain similarities are overstated (and sometimes even fabricated), and even in the latter case there is an agenda.
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lockdownboredom
Regular Member
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Distance based analyses are not designed to reveal genetic relationships; they merely calculate distances between sets of coordinates. In a PCA, EEF populations, along with MENA-related components (Iran_N, Levant_N, CHG), plot south of Yamnaya populations. Since Southern Europeans have a higher proportion of EEF ancestry compared to Steppe ancestry, whereas the reverse is true for Northern Europeans, certain Southern European populations may appear closer to MENA groups than to Northern Europeans in these distance calculations.
Pax Augusta
Elite member
You don't have to tell me that; I am responding to those who value distance as revealing something important.
An Iron Age population of southern Europe that was WHG, EEF, and Steppe, even though they had fewer Steppes and more EEF than northern Europeans, still plotted closer to northern Europeans. What brings some southern European populations closer to MENA populations is a mix of factors, the decline of WHG, and the growth of Iran_N and CHG, which we know have been going around since the Bronze Age.
did i debunk false stuff? yes. did you have a problem with it? yes. did you say that if i have a problem with wrong stuff beeing debunked i should leave? yes.Complained ?? what are you on dude, you just keep whining on distances and useless stuff in the greater scheme and get over a lot of BS said by the op, that's what i said, never said Estonians and Belarussians are not as far like Iranians.
Maybe you still didn't understand but it's the op that says Italians and Iranians are almost the same, i never accused you.
The point is that you "accidentally" feel the need to register to just scold Heretolearn and not the tons of bs said by the OP. Let's see if you get it now.
thanks for your input and the numbers. i agree that exagerating similarities is also always done with an agenda. in the case of Moja it is clear what it is. he wants to tie the CHG iran_N ancestry in europe to indo european migrations out of what is now iran and he sees the darker complexion of people back then in the steppe, which might have been comparable to that of modern day iranians, as evidence for this. still there was no need to turn this into apricity with the introduction of other agendas.
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what else could be used? if we are not particularly interested in population migrations but just in the genetic similiarity of populations then those distances aren't that bad or are they? we could also use Fst but i can't find studies that compared a lot of european and middle eastern populations that way.
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thejoker
Regular Member
- Messages
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As i said, what are you on dude ? I have no problems, as I was already here before you so i didn't take time to register either and the op was debunked hard . The rest is gibberish and chit chat that add nothing to the great scheme, given that Pax Augusta also explained you that to consider Belarussians and Estonians in the distances is not that simple.
