Politics Irish reject EU Reform Treaty

Starship said:
The anti treaty side have argued that a no to Lisbon will mean 2 things.
1. If one country votes no then it is legally dead and buried and it does not matter if the other 26 ratify it.
2. We now default back to the Nice treaty which has no provisions for expelling any of the 27 members.
They are opposed to any further political integration of Europe.
Basically all along they have been saying vote no and nothing will happen things will simply continue as they were before and to a certain extent they have, all the dire predictions from the Yes camp have come to nothing (so far).
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Actually, contrarily to what many think, this is not true.

1. Nothing prevents the 26 countries from ratifying the treaty, leaving Ireland outside of it, and thus creating a new EU. Let's call it the Lisbon-zone (just like we already have a Schengen-zone and a euro-zone). Tha fact that Ireland is an island and lies at the fringe of the EU makes it all the easier to implement this solution. A Schengen-zone without France or Germany would be unthinkable, but without the UK and Ireland (as it is now), it works fine, justly because these are islands.

2. The Nice Treaty may not have provisions to expel a member state, but nothing prevent some countries to move ahead with deeper integration before the others. That's how the EU has worked so far (visas, euro, EEC...).

Indeed, if the Irish people rejects again Lisbon, nothing will change for them, but other countries will just move on with further integration, leaving Ireland with less political influence inside the EU.
 
2. The Nice Treaty may not have provisions to expel a member state, but nothing prevent some countries to move ahead with deeper integration before the others. That's how the EU has worked so far (visas, euro, EEC...).

Indeed, if the Irish people rejects again Lisbon, nothing will change for them, but other countries will just move on with further integration, leaving Ireland with less political influence inside the EU.
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Well if that is the alternative its needs to be publicly advertised in Ireland by the other heads of state and Eu bodies because it certainly isn't at the moment.

It may suit a certain percentage of the Irish people (in fact the same option might suit large numbers of people in the other 26) but it does not suit me.
It certainly doesn't suit the majority of Irish people I believe either, but I explained how a mismanaged referendum campaign, fear tactics and confusion won the day on the 12th of June. What we need now is clarity and not supposition and vague threats of isolationism, can not the European parliament or which ever relevant body (with complete credibility) not publicly spell out its intentions if all 27 countries don't ratify Lisbon.

At least then the Yes camp could hold this up to the electorate and say here is your choice clear and simple.
 
Maybe the hidden agenda of the no-campaigner was justly that Ireland does not ratify the treaty so that it is left aside and loses influences within the EU... As I said there were some powerful international media groups (e.g. Murdoch) behind the no campaign, and these people may prefer to see Ireland have closer ties with the USA than the EU. Once deeper integration is achieved inside the EU, Ireland will feel all the more European and more distant from America or Australia. Why do you think most big American companies (Microsoft, Google, Intel, IBM...) have chosen their European headquarters specifically in Ireland ? It's not labour cost ; Ireland has some of the highest salaries and office rental cost in the EU.
 
There are over 600 American companies in Ireland, they are here for a number of reasons, first and foremost to make a profit. The advantages of doing business in Ireland from an American point of view would be along the lines of low corporate tax rate, young highly educated work force, membership of the Eu, member of the euro club, English speaking, a lot of similarities and connections culturally and successive Governments and Government bodies courting big us companies.

The word coming back from America through different government ministers is the disbelief that we voted no. The American business community want further Eu integration as they see this as a benefit to them and the concern in Government circles is that an attitude might emerge around board room tables in the Us that Ireland is not committed to Europe and may be turning her back to the Eu. The recent visit by Brian Cowen (Our Prime Minister) to the US was to fly the flag and make it clear we are open for Business.
Among the No camp you have a wide variety stretching from the far left to the far right and some of these are as anti American, anti globalization as they are anti further EU integration.

Its a waste of time trying to appeal to them as they are hard core with their own specific agendas, its the pro Eu No voters who the Government need to convince if we are to move on from this impasse. A recent poll in the Irish times today claims that 10% of those who voted Yes to Lisbon have now moved over to the No side, why who knows. That's why the Government need to take their time and analyse the rejection before they attempt any new initiative.

But I'll repeat this again, a clear indication from a reputable Eu body clearly stating what road will be followed in the event that Ireland's No vote stands would I believe help the Yes camp.
 
In their new article Who cares about Europe?, the Economist argues that the EU is too complex for normal citizens to understand, illustrating their claim by the Irish rejection of the Reform Treaty.

First of all, the Economist admits that national health policies are as complex as EU treaties and that ordinary citizens should not be expected to understand every details of either. That's a stark contradiction with their main argumentation.

But it is the kind of comment, in their conclusion, that bugs me :

The Economist said:
Ireland shows that most voters do not understand the EU, and do not really want to.
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Then, why does the Economist think that the Irish are representative of the whole European population ? Ireland's case does not show anything other European countries. Awareness of EU institutions and enthusiasm about the EU varies greatly between member states. In Luxembourg or Belgium few people would dare to admit publicly being anti-European, and few would fall into the cheap traps of the anti-Treaty propaganda seen in Ireland (e.g. making people believe that there will be an EU-wide conscription or that taxes would be harmonised across Europe).

Ireland is probably one of the old EU-15 states with the lowest awareness levels about EU matters. The question is why ?

Euronews has by far the largest audience of any news chanels in Europe. It reaches 177 million European households, twice more than BBC News. However I doubt that Irish people are responsible for that. If they watched it more often (at least once a week), so many of them couldn't be that unaware of how the EU works.

One of the purposes of Euronews is to keep Europeans informed about EU matters. That's why they have 24h/7d programmes like Parlamento, Europeans, Europa, Pass, and so on. And that is why I am amazed that only 18% of the voters in Ireland knew things that even the occasional Euronews audience would have known.
 
I couldn't really comment on other Europeans attitude to Europe and its not like you get to many of them contributing comments to this thread in this forum, so far its been an Irish man, an English man and a Belgium (I'm sure there is a joke in there somewhere).

As for news I think most Irish get their updates from National Newspapers, local radio programmes and National news programmes such as RTE, TV3 and to some extent BBC and maybe UTV, (The last 2 being British) SKY had an Irish version for a while but it was dropped due to lack of interest.

After the referendum the EU did some research to see what was affecting Irish attitudes and apparently the British tabloids do a lot of Irish prints such as the "Irish Mail" and while these would have a lot local Irish news they would still toe the line on the British editorial stance on Europe basically Euro sceptic. These papers would be popular with the working class who came out as the most opposed to the Lisbon Treaty.

As for Euro News it can be got in Ireland but SKY have it on a news only channel platform, up with Sky news, Fox, China, France, India CNN and Russia and Aljazeera.

Really to attract and inform Irish audiences RTE should try and incorporate European News on the National Channel I think it would be fair to say most Irish people would have a better knowledge of American National News and British football than anything on the mainland.
 
The Czechs have ratified the treaty today. This only leaves Ireland. We will see in autumn if the Irish population will join the rest of Europe or if they wants to foster enmity against them.
 
I don't believe the majority of people who voted No were or are anti Europe, in fact in their minds they are probably more pro Europe but were afraid of being lost in a superstate, enough of that now its been discussed to death.

There seems to be a growing consensus here that a Yes vote will be passed next time and that's pretty much down to the (Economy Stupid) than any great shift of opinion as to the merits of Lisbon.

But lets not count our chickens just yet.
 
Were on the final count down to Lisbon 2 just 5 days to go, so on the 2nd of October we vote again!

The Yes side are in the lead and there are far less undecided voters than last time, but its not a done deal the Yes side were in the lead last time as well, although not this close to the finish line.

The debate has been heated and passionate, Declan Ganley re entered the fray even though his Libertas party took a hammering in the European elections and he vowed not to get involved again. O'Leary the Ryan Air boss came in on the YES side and in his unpolitic best told Ganley to bugger off and implored people not to vote for the that bunch of losers.

People are better informed and less willing to believe the No side even though they make compelling arguments, Ireland has taken a hammering from the credit crunch and the banking crises and as much as the people want to punish the parties in Government it doesn't look like they will use this referendum to do it.
 
It would be quite foolish for Ireland to vote no again on the Treaty of Lisbon. Essentially, a no outcome would relegate Ireland to a "slower track" status in the E.U., something it can ill afford given the country's current state of affairs.
 
I agree with you Cambria and that is the main argument of the Yes camp but the No camp aren't interested in the economy or jobs. Some are concerned with Ireland's independence and others I feel are more interested in giving as they call it the European ruling class elite a bloody nose. Who this elite are I couldn't tell you but we seem to be fertile ground for every conspiracy theory going and the main one is we are being hood winked into a superstate.

Both sides are using scare tactics on the voters but the biggest gun in the YES sides arsenal is the recession, with out it I don't think Lisbon would stand a chance, the whole thing has a bad reflection on democracy.

Any way I hope it is passed, for Irelands sake and simply because it seems to be a good treaty which is something no one seems to be focusing on at all. I also hope its the last we are asked to vote on for quiet some time I'm a bit sick of it all to be honest.
 
Starship said:
Some are concerned with Ireland's independence and others I feel are more interested in giving as they call it the European ruling class elite a bloody nose. Who this elite are I couldn't tell you but we seem to be fertile ground for every conspiracy theory going and the main one is we are being hood winked into a superstate.
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Don't tell anyone, but the credit crunch was actually a international conspiracy by our government elite to force the Irish to accept Lisbon, the Brits to join the Euro, the Icelandic to join the EU, and the Swiss to reveal the list of US and EU tax-evaders. :grin: Would make for a nice conspiracy story, huh ?
 
Have you heard of the Corrs a Irish folk/pop band, Jim Corr a member has his own web site filled to the brim with just about every conspiracy theory you can imagine, from 9/11 to Lisbon and a new world order all of which he believes fervently.

www.jimcorr.com

And they gave this head banger air time on the radio to argue against Lisbon, but if you want a taste of some of the other argument's going on have a look at some of these articles, some are on the BBC others from the Irish Independent news papers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8275265.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8274945.stm

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-blasts-use-of-conscription-lies-1898886.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-...out-over-vote-blackmail-campaign-1898857.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-...bet-on-irish-bank-shares-falling-1898844.html
 
Starship said:
Have you heard of the Corrs a Irish folk/pop band, Jim Corr a member has his own web site filled to the brim with just about every conspiracy theory you can imagine, from 9/11 to Lisbon and a new world order all of which he believes fervently.
www.jimcorr.com
And they gave this head banger air time on the radio to argue against Lisbon, but if you want a taste of some of the other argument's going on have a look at some of these articles, some are on the BBC others from the Irish Independent news papers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8275265.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8274945.stm
http://www.independent.ie/national-...-blasts-use-of-conscription-lies-1898886.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-...out-over-vote-blackmail-campaign-1898857.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-...bet-on-irish-bank-shares-falling-1898844.html
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Hey, different strokes for different folks. So many delusional souls out there these days. Sign of a deteriorating society...
 
It's a relief. Now let's hope that the Czech and Polish presidents won't wait too long to sign the treaty, as the new British government in 6 months might also want to hold a referendum.
 
A relief, indeed. I read today in the FT that it is now a given that Poland will sign and resistance from the Czech Republic has apparently weakened. The U.K. could present a problem if it holds a referendum.
 
Now, let us see if Iceland votes to join the E.U.
 
Cambria Red said:
Now, let us see if Iceland votes to join the E.U.
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I think that they have already formally requested full admission to the EU. It should be fast since they are already member of the European Economic Area and Schengen zone.
 
The Lisbon Treaty has finally been ratified by every member state. It will come into force on 1 December.
 
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