Is Giuseppe Garibaldi E-V13?

[Azzurro]

The great Italian patriot and unifier of Italy, might have belonged to E-V13. This is based of a presumed cousin who tested on Ftdna.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults

As the most distant ancestor of this man is a GioBattista Garibaldi born in Nascio, Liguria. Nascio is a frazione of the town of Ne. As per Wikipedia on the article regarding Ne, Garibaldi's ancestor with his surname was founded in the nearby Graveglia valley.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne,_Liguria

There is even a Wikipedia article regarding the Garibaldi family, which includes Giuseppe. The article is in Italian, and also connects the Garibaldi's to Ne, Liguria

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garibaldi_(famiglia)

 

[Angela]

Well, if true, that should put an end to speculations that y haplogroups necessarily correlate somehow with place of origin.

He looks like an American Civil War General:

 

[Azzurro]

The first image really does look like him. What do you think? Same surname, same ancestral town, the odds are good of him being E-V13.

 

[Angela]

The first image really does look like him. What do you think? Same surname, same ancestral town, the odds are good of him being E-V13.

It's certainly possible. There's E-V13 in Liguria and southern France certainly.

However, I rarely totally trust genealogical trees for y haplogroup assignment. There could be NPEs of one sort or another for all we know.

 

[Angela]

It's certainly possible. There's E-V13 in Liguria and southern France certainly.

However, I rarely totally trust genealogical trees for y haplogroup assignment. There could be NPEs of one sort or another for all we know.

I hope there wasn't any confusion. Garibaldi is the one in the middle, and he and the American general above him do have similar features, in my opinion.

Robert E Lee's eyes are more far apart...

 

[Azzurro]

I hope there wasn't any confusion. Garibaldi is the one in the middle, and he and the American general above him do have similar features, in my opinion.

Robert E Lee's eyes are more far apart...

I was thinking the same thing, the eyes are different and even the mouth, Robert E Lee has a bigger lower lip.

For the same reasons too I was thinking, there is always the possibilty of NPE event, I would say if another Garibaldi or similar surname variant from the area gets E-V13, than it's 100% confirmed.

I personally would classify Garibaldi as E-V13, for now, I think the evidence is pretty good.

 

[Pax Augusta]

The first image really does look like him. What do you think? Same surname, same ancestral town, the odds are good of him being E-V13.

First it should be proven the GioBatta Garibaldi, born the same year of Giuseppe Garibaldi, is a cousin of Giuseppe, and that in the case of GioBatta (=Giovanni Battista) the surname is really inherited from the paternal line, not to mention that could be a NPE. Generally speaking, based on my family archival research, there are chance that not all the Garibaldis descend from the same ancestor, even if the surname seems concentrated in few areas of Liguria. I have seen seen many similar cases.

I think there are still living many descendants of Giuseppe Garibaldi. Someone shoud be tested.

 

[Azzurro]

First it should be proven the GioBatta Garibaldi, born the same year of Giuseppe Garibaldi, is a cousin of Giuseppe, and that in the case of GioBatta (=Giovanni Battista) the surname is really inherited from the paternal line, not to mention that could be a NPE. Generally speaking, based on my family archival research, there are chance that not all the Garibaldis descend from the same ancestor, even if the surname seems concentrated in few areas of Liguria. I have seen seen many similar cases.

I think there are still living many descendants of Giuseppe Garibaldi. Someone shoud be tested.

I wouldn't even know how to contact the descendant of Giovanni Battista, I am not haplogroup E so he wouldn't be a match, maybe I can contact the Italy project admin to email and ask. The real solid point is that both have paternal ancestry relating to Ne, I really think the odds are good.

For sure getting one of Giuseppe's descendants to test would be the best way to know.

 

[Maciamo]

However, I rarely totally trust genealogical trees for y haplogroup assignment. There could be NPEs of one sort or another for all we know.

It helps when there are several people of the same lineage who tested positive for the same haplogroup. NPEs are a relatively minor concern within 6 or 7 generations. If the probability is 1% per generation, we still have a confidence of over 90% over 250 years or so. We saw with the descendants of the Kings of France since Louis XIII tested by Larmuseau et al. (2013) that a lineage can survive free of NPEs for over 400 years across multiple lines. Of course we can never been 100% sure of someone's Y-haplogroup unless we test his DNA directly. Even testing the father, son or a brother, there could have been a non-paternity event. That doesn't deter websites like ISOGG or 23andMe to list famous people's haplogroups based on a relative's testing (as was the case with Napoleon I vs Napoleon III).

 

[Maciamo]

First it should be proven the GioBatta Garibaldi, born the same year of Giuseppe Garibaldi, is a cousin of Giuseppe, and that in the case of GioBatta (=Giovanni Battista) the surname is really inherited from the paternal line, not to mention that could be a NPE. Generally speaking, based on my family archival research, there are chance that not all the Garibaldis descend from the same ancestor, even if the surname seems concentrated in few areas of Liguria. I have seen seen many similar cases.

I think there are still living many descendants of Giuseppe Garibaldi. Someone shoud be tested.

I agree that in general just sharing a surname is not enough to guess a person's haplogroup. There are thousands of Y-DNA surname projects and in virtually all of them there is a diversity of lineages and haplogroups. However, it is very rare that two people with the same surname coming from the same little village exactly at the same period, and only 200 years ago (not say 600 years ago, where the chance of NPEs is much higher) do not descend from the same lineage, especially if that surname is not common. The more common the surname and the lower the chance of sharing a haplogroup. But Garibaldi is a rare surname concentrated mostly in Liguria.

Additionally, Giuseppe's father was born in the Parrocchia di S. Giovanni Battista in Chiavari, a few kilometres from Nascio. Note that the name of the parish matches the given name of the ancestor on FTDNA (Giovanni Battista). I don't think it's a coincidence. Unfortunately Geni.com does not list the children of Giuseppe's brothers, nor those of his father or grandfather's brothers. But they had several brothers and I would bet that one of of his first or second cousin was called Giovanni Battista. Perhaps someone can search on an Italian genealogy website? (as I don't really know which ones are popular)

 

[Angela]

Garibaldi is indeed a very Ligurian name. I know people myself who carry it.

As I said, it wouldn't at all surprise me that he carried E-V13. It's certainly present in Liguria in very decent numbers.

There also seems to be quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that this is the case. People should just be aware that circumstantial evidence is just that...circumstantial.

For anyone who is going to descend into the morass of Italian genealogical trees, they should be aware that the same names get used over and over again, i.e. in just one generation of one of my mother's lines, for example, there were six Giovanni Battistas (a very common name in Liguria and surrounding areas), infants who died among them, but also just second cousins, third cousins etc. So, death records, marriage records, etc., and the corresponding dates have to be carefully checked.

As for NPEs, they needn't have occurred within the span of a few generations. I'll take my father's family as an example. They've been living, so far as I can tell, in the same villages in the northern Apennines since the 1400-1500s at least. I wouldn't bet that after all that time every single one of the men who carry my father's surname carry exactly the same yDna. Now, they probably do, especially since they likely arrived from the same area, and women were watched very stringently, but there's no guarantee.

That's what I mean by probability versus proof.

In the case where a son or grandchild is tested, the likelihood that there's been no NPE is much higher, although still not absolute proof, of course.

Anyway, a very great man, Garibaldi, whatever yDna he carried. He and Mazzini were my father's heroes. No pictures of Popes were allowed on our walls, just those two.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I wouldn't even know how to contact the descendant of Giovanni Battista, I am not haplogroup E so he wouldn't be a match, maybe I can contact the Italy project admin to email and ask. The real solid point is that both have paternal ancestry relating to Ne, I really think the odds are good.

For sure getting one of Giuseppe's descendants to test would be the best way to know.

Yes, it would be a great idea to contact the Italy project admin.

I agree that in general just sharing a surname is not enough to guess a person's haplogroup. There are thousands of Y-DNA surname projects and in virtually all of them there is a diversity of lineages and haplogroups. However, it is very rare that two people with the same surname coming from the same little village exactly at the same period, and only 200 years ago (not say 600 years ago, where the chance of NPEs is much higher) do not descend from the same lineage, especially if that surname is not common. The more common the surname and the lower the chance of sharing a haplogroup.

Of course, Azzurro made a great find, and there's a good chance that two people with surname Garibaldi born in the same valley are related and a E-V13 in Liguria is plausible. At the same time, we need to do further searches, because we cannot rule out that they are not. Not to mention that Ftda project is self-reported as I know.

But Garibaldi is a rare surname concentrated mostly in Liguria.

For Italian standards it's not rare. In Italy there are at least 350,000 different surnames, in Italy a surname is rare when is carried by less than 10/20 families. According to Cognomix there are 638 families with surname Garibaldi in Italy, based on the phone directory. It means that people with this surname in Italy are many more.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/GARIBALDI

Very often identical surnames are spread in the same areas in Italy, not only because they do descend from the same ancestor, but also because same names (from which surnames are originated) were common and widespread in the same area for some kind of local imitation.

Additionally, Giuseppe's father was born in the Parrocchia di S. Giovanni Battista in Chiavari, a few kilometres from Nascio. Note that the name of the parish matches the given name of the ancestor on FTDNA (Giovanni Battista). I don't think it's a coincidence. Unfortunately Geni.com does not list the children of Giuseppe's brothers, nor those of his father or grandfather's brothers. But they had several brothers and I would bet that one of of his first or second cousin was called Giovanni Battista. Perhaps someone can search on an Italian genealogy website? (as I don't really know which ones are popular)

Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very common names among Italians in that period, because both Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very popular Saint names (in the Catholic hierarchy they are in the top 5 ). I can try to search on Italian genealogy websites.

 

[LABERIA]

He was a great man. I prefer this photo:

Also i want to post this simple memorial plaque, few persons deserve such a great honor:

 

[Azzurro]

Yes, it would be a great idea to contact the Italy project admin.




Of course, Azzurro made a great find, and there's a good chance that two people with surname Garibaldi born in the same valley are related and a E-V13 in Liguria is plausible. At the same time, we need to do further searches, because we cannot rule out that they are not. Not to mention that Ftda project is self-reported as I know.





For Italian standards it's not rare. In Italy there are at least 350,000 different surnames, in Italy a surname is rare when is carried by less than 10/20 families. According to Cognomix there are 638 families with surname Garibaldi in Italy, based on the phone directory. It means that people with this surname in Italy are many more.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/GARIBALDI

Very often identical surnames are spread in the same areas in Italy, not only because they do descend from the same ancestor, but also because same names (from which surnames are originated) were common and widespread in the same area for some kind of local imitation.




Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very common names among Italians in that period, because both Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very popular Saint names (in the Catholic hierarchy they are in the top 5 ). I can try to search on Italian genealogy websites.

I contacted one of the administrators, I am waiting for the response, and definitely with Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista being common, I am sure you can include Antonio and Francesco in the top 5 as well.

 

[Angela]

I contacted one of the administrators, I am waiting for the response, and definitely with Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista being common, I am sure you can include Antonio and Francesco in the top 5 as well.

Between Saint Francis and Anthony of Padua (who wasn't Italian, btw, but Spanish), I think that's a pretty good bet.

They were common even in the Renaissance:
http://www.behindthename.com/top/lists/italy-renaissance/1427

There are differences between eras and areas of the country, however. Certain given names are pan Italian. Certain ones are more common in the north versus the south. If someone's name is Salvatore, chances are that he's southern, for example. They also seem to me to go more for antique Latin names although northerners have them too: Fabio, Flavio, Florio.

Some of the Latin ones in our area: Cesare, Aurelia, Aurelio.

My mother's family went in for some pretty ugly sounding Germanic names, too: Osvaldo, Adalberto, etc.

There's been a change recently:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/penpals/stats.php3?Pays=ITA

No girls named Sara when I was growing up, or any of the other names either. Giovanni is now 22 and Maria 31!

Given the low birthrate and all these new names, genealogists should have an easier time in the future.

@Laberia,
I just noticed your signature line. I like Mark Twain a lot...a homespun philosopher and great student of human nature.

A color version so you can see the famous "red shirt".

 

[Azzurro]

Between Saint Francis and Anthony of Padua (who wasn't Italian, btw, but Spanish), I think that's a pretty good bet.

They were common even in the Renaissance:
http://www.behindthename.com/top/lists/italy-renaissance/1427

There are differences between eras and areas of the country, however. Certain given names are pan Italian. Certain ones are more common in the north versus the south. If someone's name is Salvatore, chances are that he's southern, for example. They also seem to me to go more for antique Latin names although northerners have them too: Fabio, Flavio, Florio.

Some of the Latin ones in our area: Cesare, Aurelia, Aurelio.

My mother's family went in for some pretty ugly sounding Germanic names, too: Osvaldo, Adalberto, etc.

There's been a change recently:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/penpals/stats.php3?Pays=ITA

No girls named Sara when I was growing up, or any of the other names either. Giovanni is now 22 and Maria 31!

Given the low birthrate and all these new names, genealogists should have an easier time in the future.

@Laberia,
I just noticed your signature line. I like Mark Twain a lot...a homespun philosopher and great student of human nature.

A color version so you can see the famous "red shirt".

Isn't Saint Anthony Portugese? If I'm not mistaken he was born in Lisbon. It's funny you mention Salvatore as I have a Salvatore in my family Even in the south their is name variants such as Antonino replacing Antonio (more in Sicily and Calabria) maybe also Vito more common in the South and Vittorio in the North? Very true with the name changes, I remember reading the masculine name Mattia is common now too, also english names started being somewhat of the practice, names like Cristian.

 

[Angela]

Isn't Saint Anthony Portugese? If I'm not mistaken he was born in Lisbon. It's funny you mention Salvatore as I have a Salvatore in my family Even in the south their is name variants such as Antonino replacing Antonio (more in Sicily and Calabria) maybe also Vito more common in the South and Vittorio in the North? Very true with the name changes, I remember reading the masculine name Mattia is common now too, also english names started being somewhat of the practice, names like Cristian.

You're right, Portuguese, not Spanish. I should have checked before posting. Despite the fact that St. Francis is the patron saint of Italy(along with Catherine of Siena), it was the name of Saint Anthony which was usually on people's lips.

Vito is definitely southern. I've never met a 100% northern Italian or Central Italian with that name, nor a Salvatore, Gennaro, Pasquale, Corrado, Vincenzo, Santino. Even Angelo is not a name I ever heard in the family or extended family. It's just different. In my own generation there was Adriano/a, Andrea, Luca, Gianni/a, Piero/a, Paolo/a, Lina, Elena, Loredana, Irene, etc.

Nowadays they take names from foreign movie stars or just foreign countries too. My half Italian/half Swiss German young cousin is named Patrick. I have no idea why. I think it sounds stupid with his last name, but whatever, I guess I'm old fashioned. Oh, and my other first cousin's son on my mother's side had to be named Archimedi in honor of his Venetian ancestors' tribute to the Greek source of their fortune, alas now practically all spent. Poor thing: how would you like to go around with Archimedes as your name? We just call him Medi.

Oh, another ugly name in my mother's extended family from the 19th century: Arduina. I hate Matilde too.

From my father's side, other than the normal saints' names, we had the following nicer, imo, names: Dario, Dante, Beatrice, Livia. I know, I know: we've always been readers.

Anyway, Azzurro, I think I've strayed off topic, so I'll end here.

 

[Azzurro]

You're right, Portuguese, not Spanish. I should have checked before posting. Despite the fact that St. Francis is the patron saint of Italy(along with Catherine of Siena), it was the name of Saint Anthony which was usually on people's lips.

Vito is definitely southern. I've never met a 100% northern Italian or Central Italian with that name, nor a Salvatore, Gennaro, Pasquale, Corrado, Vincenzo, Santino. Even Angelo is not a name I ever heard in the family or extended family. It's just different. In my own generation there was Adriano/a, Andrea, Luca, Gianni/a, Piero/a, Paolo/a, Lina, Elena, Loredana, Irene, etc.

Nowadays they take names from foreign movie stars or just foreign countries too. My half Italian/half Swiss German young cousin is named Patrick. I have no idea why. I think it sounds stupid with his last name, but whatever, I guess I'm old fashioned. Oh, and my other first cousin's son on my mother's side had to be named Archimedi in honor of his Venetian ancestors' tribute to the Greek source of their fortune, alas now practically all spent. Poor thing: how would you like to go around with Archimedes as your name? We just call him Medi.

Oh, another ugly name in my mother's extended family from the 19th century: Arduina. I hate Matilde too.

Anyway, Azzurro, I think I've strayed off topic, so I'll end here.

Thanks for your insight on the names Very informative.

 

[Maciamo]

For Italian standards it's not rare. In Italy there are at least 350,000 different surnames, in Italy a surname is rare when is carried by less than 10/20 families. According to Cognomix there are 638 families with surname Garibaldi in Italy, based on the phone directory. It means that people with this surname in Italy are many more.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/GARIBALDI

I am aware of the diversity of surnames in Italy. I wrote an article on Italian surnames by region and another one on the Comparative diversity of European family names 10 years ago. Belgium has 190,000 surnames for 10 million inhabitants (if we exclude foreigners). That's almost four times more diversity per capita than Italy. I still consider than a patronym carried by 100 to 500 families is relatively rare. 10-20 would be exceedingly rare (almost extinct). In contrast over 45,000 Italian families have the surname Rossi. In terms of Y-DNA spread, considering that traditional families in past centuries often had lots o children (maybe 3 to 6 sons), one lineage could easily expand from one individual to 300 in just 5 or 6 generations, maybe even less if they had very large families with high survival rates and a slight bias toward more boys. That's less than two centuries anyway.

Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very common names among Italians in that period, because both Giuseppe and Giovanni Battista are very popular Saint names (in the Catholic hierarchy they are in the top 5 ). I can try to search on Italian genealogy websites.

I am surprised that Giovanni Battista is one of the most poplar saint names. I have travelled to all regions in northern Italy (except Val d'Aosta) + Lazio and Campania and I don't recall ever seeing a cathedral or church dedicated to San Giovanni Battista. The same is true in Belgium and France (never once heard of an église Saint Jean-Baptiste). The parish I mentioned above in Chiavari was the first I heard of. Anyway, there might be some, but not many compared to the San Pietro, San Francesco, San Michele, Sant' Andrea, San Lorenzo, San Paolo, San Giovanni, San Giorgio, San Nicola, Sant'Antonio, etc.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I am surprised that Giovanni Battista is one of the most poplar saint names. I have travelled to all regions in northern Italy (except Val d'Aosta) + Lazio and Campania and I don't recall ever seeing a cathedral or church dedicated to San Giovanni Battista. The same is true in Belgium and France (never once heard of an église Saint Jean-Baptiste). The parish I mentioned above in Chiavari was the first I heard of. Anyway, there might be some, but not many compared to the San Pietro, San Francesco, San Michele, Sant' Andrea, San Lorenzo, San Paolo, San Giovanni, San Giorgio, San Nicola, Sant'Antonio, etc.

Many baptisteries in Italy are named after San Giovanni Battista (Wikipedia lists are incomplete)

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battistero_di_San_Giovanni_Battista

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battistero_di_San_Giovanni

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giovanni_Battista_(disambigua)#Pagine_correlate


And also many churches.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_di_San_Giovanni_Battista#Italia