Is Turkey a Western country ? OFFTOPIC about Iberians

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Woden

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TurkYusuf1 you are trying much too hard. It is abundantly clear that Turkey has no real place in Europe. Case closed. Finito.

It is funny that you should say that because the Portuguese are traditionally considered to be non-white hybrids by 'white nationalists', more so than any other nation in Europe.

Portugal is as southerly as Turkey but a lot closer to the coast of Africa.

This summary is from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people#Other_historical_influences

Genetic impact of Muslim rule

...In Portugal, North African Y-DNA haplogroups (especially the typically North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81) are found at a total frequency of 7.1 %.[9] Some mtDNA studies also found evidence of the characteristic North African haplogroup U6 especially in northern Portugal.[10][11] Although the absolute frequency of U6 is low (4-6%), Gonzalez et al. 2003 estimated a possible North African ancestry proportion of 27% in North Portugal, because U6 is not a common lineage in North Africa itself.[12]

Sub-Saharan genetic markers

Portugal is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of Sub-Saharan origin, possibly a result of Berber and Arab colonization or slave trade. In 2003, a study by Brehm at al. which analysed 525 Portuguese individuals reported mtDNA L haplogroups at 11.8% in the south, 8.1% in the center, 3.3% in the north and also found a significant Sub-Saharan imprint in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores[18] In a 2005 study by Pereira et al. that analysed 549 Portuguese individuals, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 11.38% in the south, 5.02% in the center and 3.21% in the north.[19].
 
It is funny that you should say that because the Portuguese are traditionally considered to be non-white hybrids by 'white nationalists', more so than any other nation in Europe.

Portugal is as southerly as Turkey but a lot closer to the coast of Africa.

This summary is from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people#Other_historical_influences

Genetic impact of Muslim rule

...In Portugal, North African Y-DNA haplogroups (especially the typically North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81) are found at a total frequency of 7.1 %.[9] Some mtDNA studies also found evidence of the characteristic North African haplogroup U6 especially in northern Portugal.[10][11] Although the absolute frequency of U6 is low (4-6%), Gonzalez et al. 2003 estimated a possible North African ancestry proportion of 27% in North Portugal, because U6 is not a common lineage in North Africa itself.[12]

Sub-Saharan genetic markers

Portugal is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of Sub-Saharan origin, possibly a result of Berber and Arab colonization or slave trade. In 2003, a study by Brehm at al. which analysed 525 Portuguese individuals reported mtDNA L haplogroups at 11.8% in the south, 8.1% in the center, 3.3% in the north and also found a significant Sub-Saharan imprint in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores[18] In a 2005 study by Pereira et al. that analysed 549 Portuguese individuals, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 11.38% in the south, 5.02% in the center and 3.21% in the north.[19].

What has this anything to do with being European ?? Portuguese are European , Turks are not.
Plus, Portuguese are genetically european in Autosomal DNA
 
What has this anything to do with being European ?? Portuguese are European , Turks are not.
Plus, Portuguese are genetically european in Autosomal DNA

The Portuguese have very heavy north African and even sub-Saharan African ancestry.

They cannot be considered simply "European". They are Afro-European hybrids.

The Portuguese should take a look at themselves before they start saying who is European and who is not.
 
It is funny that you should say that because the Portuguese are traditionally considered to be non-white hybrids by 'white nationalists', more so than any other nation in Europe.

Portugal is as southerly as Turkey but a lot closer to the coast of Africa.

This summary is from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people#Other_historical_influences

Genetic impact of Muslim rule

...In Portugal, North African Y-DNA haplogroups (especially the typically North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81) are found at a total frequency of 7.1 %.[9] Some mtDNA studies also found evidence of the characteristic North African haplogroup U6 especially in northern Portugal.[10][11] Although the absolute frequency of U6 is low (4-6%), Gonzalez et al. 2003 estimated a possible North African ancestry proportion of 27% in North Portugal, because U6 is not a common lineage in North Africa itself.[12]

Sub-Saharan genetic markers

Portugal is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of Sub-Saharan origin, possibly a result of Berber and Arab colonization or slave trade. In 2003, a study by Brehm at al. which analysed 525 Portuguese individuals reported mtDNA L haplogroups at 11.8% in the south, 8.1% in the center, 3.3% in the north and also found a significant Sub-Saharan imprint in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores[18] In a 2005 study by Pereira et al. that analysed 549 Portuguese individuals, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 11.38% in the south, 5.02% in the center and 3.21% in the north.[19].


You have no clue what you are talking about and are an ignorant intra-race racist. What is your claim to fame, slinging codswallop?:LOL:

I've read all the studies on Portuguese Sub-Saharan mt-DNA. Most of them are NON-REPRESENTATIVE because the sampling methodologies were faulty. In reality, Sub-Saharan DNA is, on average, no higher than other parts of Europe because some of the L sequences found were not Sub-Saharan at all but Asiatic. Read Beleza et al, (2005) and look at Y (L-DNA) lineages for Portugal, they comes to 0.3%. BTW, genius, AUTOSOMAL DNA determines phenotype...

Do I give a damn about what some deranged, brain-dead Nationalist Nordicist racist thinks, or what ignorant people like you have to say? You are an uneducated fool and totally laughable.

BTW, Portuguese cluster almost perfectly with Spaniards. And, also with Northern and Central Italians and, to a lesser extent, French and Swiss. For your information nearly all M-81 in Portugal is pre-Neolithic. Do some SERIOUS research... Are you one of those clowns who believes all the is posted on WIKIPEDIA?
 
The Portuguese have very heavy north African and even sub-Saharan African ancestry.

They cannot be considered simply "European". They are Afro-European hybrids.

The Portuguese should take a look at themselves before they start saying who is European and who is not.
You are confusing Y-DNA and mtDNA with Admixture. Portugal has less than 0.05 % of sub-saharan admixture.

González-Pérez et al. (2010) have analyzed populations from the northern and southern shores of the Mediterranean, with Central Europeans and West Africans as external references. They estimate Sub-Saharan African admixture using two methods that yield vastly disparate results. In the Discussion section, they admit that the inflated "Alu/STR estimate might be artefactual" and favor the estimate based on the Alu loci set alone because it's consistent with previous mtDNA, Y-chromosome and 500,000-SNP structure data.

gonzalezperez2010admixt.png
 
The Portuguese have very heavy north African and even sub-Saharan African ancestry.

They cannot be considered simply "European". They are Afro-European hybrids.

The Portuguese should take a look at themselves before they start saying who is European and who is not.

You are an ignorant fool. Look at the haplogroups, both Y and mt-DNA. The heaviest Near Eastern ancestry is in Greece, Italy and Balkan countries.
 
You are confusing Y-DNA and mtDNA with Admixture. Portugal has less than 0.05 % of sub-saharan admixture.

González-Pérez et al. (2010) have analyzed populations from the northern and southern shores of the Mediterranean...

González-Pérez et al. (2010) is irrelevant because none of the samples were taken in Portugal.

gonzalezperez2010sample.png
 
The Portuguese have very heavy north African and even sub-Saharan African ancestry.

They cannot be considered simply "European". They are Afro-European hybrids.

The Portuguese should take a look at themselves before they start saying who is European and who is not.

This post shows how totally clueless and uneducated you are. Send your idiotic ideas about the Portuguese to a few top research universities around the world and listen to how loud they laugh. Grow the H**l up, already.

This thread is about Turkey, ONLY. You are entitled to your opinion about E.U. Turkish membership as I am entitled to mine.

Your telling the Portuguese to look at themselves? Portuguese / Iberians are among the oldest Western Europeans. You have no idea who I am or what I look like. Maybe it is YOU who should be looking in the mirror, and at the same time, have your insect brain examined. You are too stupid for words.
 
González-Pérez et al. (2010) is irrelevant because none of the samples were taken in Portugal.

gonzalezperez2010sample.png
The Portuguese percentages do not differ from other Southern European countries.
 
Anyways, what the hell has this anything to do with being Euroepan ?? Portuguese is culturally, ethnically, historically European, while Turkey is not. We are not "White nationalists" here, sorry but you are in the wrong Forum.
 
:LOL:

Why would you need to resort to hysterical abuse if you have an IQ over 70?

You started this abuse, moron. You have an agenda, obviously. Stop twisting facts about people. If you have mental issues about certain people go see a psychiatrist.
 
In reality, Sub-Saharan DNA is, on average, no higher than other parts of Europe because some of the L sequences found were not Sub-Saharan at all but Asiatic.

Thats not true.

The mtdna L sequencies in Portugal are attributed to sub-Saharan lines.

PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A. (2000)
Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation.
Annals of Human Genetics 64 (6), 491-506.

[...]

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred Berber/Arab movement, have introduced significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade. Nine out of 17 L sequences found in this study showed matches with widespread African sequences, and with regard to the 8 remaining sequences the absence of matches can be due to the present bias in the description of sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. Broad areas corresponding to Ivory Coast, Angola and Mozambique, which represented very important sources of African slaves, remain uncharacterized.
 
González-Pérez et al. (2010) is irrelevant because none of the samples were taken in Portugal.
gonzalezperez2010sample.png

Check Beleza, et al. (2005). The Portuguese are like any other WESTERN EUROPEAN people. Strop twisting facts...
 
Thats not true.

The mtdna L sequencies in Portugal are attributed to sub-Saharan lines.

PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A. (2000)
Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation.
Annals of Human Genetics 64 (6), 491-506.

[...]

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred Berber/Arab movement, have introduced significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade. Nine out of 17 L sequences found in this study showed matches with widespread African sequences, and with regard to the 8 remaining sequences the absence of matches can be due to the present bias in the description of sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. Broad areas corresponding to Ivory Coast, Angola and Mozambique, which represented very important sources of African slaves, remain uncharacterized.

Every European population has SS DNA. And, you obviously have not read the criticisms of methodology. Ever hear of Alcacer do Sal? Do some research before you open your mouth and don't believe everything you read. So, what is your agenda?
 
Check Beleza, et al. (2005). The Portuguese are like any other WESTERN EUROPEAN people. Strop twisting facts...

You have in effect conceded the debate. You rely on a study which clearly had no samples from Portugal.

The studies all show that Portugal has substantial north African ancestry on the male side and substantial sub-Saharan ancestry on the female side.
 
This is one of many studies that have established the presence of substantial sub-Saharan ancestry in Portugal due to the slave trade.

Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation.
Annals of Human Genetics 64 (6), 491-506.


[...]

These haplogroups have been reported to be characteristic of African populations, where their frequency is inversely correlated with the North-South axis: the frequency of U6 is high in North Africa and decreases in a southerly direction, being almost absent south of the equator; the L cluster has an opposite distribution (Rando et al. 1998, 1999; Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1996).

In Portugal, as well as generally in Iberia, many migration waves from both North and sub-Saharan African populations are well documented. The geographical proximity of North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula certainly afforded many opportunities for mutual population contacts. Among them, we stress the movement of Berbers and Arabs that took place during the very recent Muslim rule of Iberia (from the 8th century to the end of the 15th, in some regions). In addition, many sub-Saharan individuals entered the region during the slave trade period, from its very beginning (middle 15th century) until its total ban in the late 19th century.

As it would be interesting to find out the origin of the L and U6 sequences detected in Portugal, we have tried to compare the motifs of the sequences observed in Portugal with those described in the literature for several populations (Figures 3 and 4). However most of the matches found for the Portuguese sequences were with sequences widely distributed in Africa, and no clear pattern of geographic clustering was detected.

A striking aspect observed for the U6 haplogroup was that 5 out of 7 of the Portuguese sequences were unique to Portugal, not allowing, therefore, any accurate assignment of their geographical origin. The Canarian characteristic sub-haplogroup U6b1 (Rando et al. 1999), observed in other Iberian samples, was not detected in the present study.

Admitting that U6 sequences could have been at least partially introduced by Berber people during the Muslim rule of Iberia, it is strange to find them restricted to North Portugal. As a matter of fact, most historical sources document a deeper influence of Berber (as well as Arab) people in Central and particularly South Iberia (as judged from toponyms and general cultural aænities), compared to North Iberia where the Muslim presence is recorded to have been more ephemeral and consequently to have made less cultural and demographic impact. The data does not exclude the possibility that U6 introductions could have been additionally reinforced by later sub-Saharan inputs mediated by the African slave trade. Even if this mixed scenario is plausible, the presence of U6 sequences exclusively in North Portugal is a question that deserves further analysis. The hypothesis of an earlier introduction in the region does not seem to be favoured, neither by its presence in a restricted geographical area, nor by the high level of heterogeneity that characterizes the set of sequences that were found among this haplogroup.

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred Berber/Arab movement, have introduced significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade. Nine out of 17 L sequences found in this study showed matches with widespread African sequences, and with regard to the 8 remaining sequences the absence of matches can be due to the present bias in the description of sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. Broad areas corresponding to Ivory Coast, Angola and Mozambique, which represented very important sources of African slaves, remain uncharacterized.

There were more African slaves in Portugal than in any other European country: in 1550, Lisbon boasted 10000 resident slaves in a population of 100000, and Portugal as a whole probably had over 40000 (Thomas, 1998). In the mid-sixteenth century the birth of slaves' children was stimulated in Portugal for internal trade purposes. Inter-breeding between autochthonous individuals and African slaves certainly occurred and the predominant mating must have been between slave African females and autochthonous males, due to social pressures and also for legal reasons: offspring of slave females would be slaves, whereas offspring of slave males would not. Therefore, breeding between slave African males and white females, besides being socially repressed, would not bring any economic profit.

If the pattern of genetic admixture was markedly sex influenced, the signature of this recent African influence would be expected to be very different in the maternally inherited gene pool and in the paternally inherited one. In a recent study based on Y chromosome biallelic markers (Pereira
et al
. 2000) we have reported the absence of typical sub-Saharan haplogroups in the Y chromosome Portuguese pool. This finding, and the detection of L sequences at 7.1% in the mitochondrial pool, both seem to support the above-mentioned pattern of admixture with African slaves.

Sharing the features of mtDNA diversity generally registered in Europeans (all European haplogroups were detected), Portugal has in addition received significant North and sub-Saharan African influences. Frequencies of haplogroups specific to these regions were higher than those reported for other European populations: 7% of North African sequences were detected (restricted to North Portugal and representing almost 3%of the total sample), and sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%. Although statistically significant differences were not detected between the three sub-samples considered, the geographic distribution pattern observed for U6 and L sequences strongly suggest that different population movements were responsible for their introduction into the country, although none of them had enough demographic impact to induce regional differentiation.

The introduction of L sequences in Portugal was tentatively imputed mainly to the modern slave trade that occurred between the 15th and 19th centuries. Both the great number of slaves that entered Portugal and their very diverse African geographic origin are consistent with the data set now reported. However, we cannot exclude some North-African contribution to present-day Portuguese L lineages.

While the population movement associated with the slave trade may be responsible by some U6 inputs, we suggest that U6 sequences were predominantly introduced into Portugal during the Berber/Arab invasion of the Peninsula. However, the observation that haplogroup U6 is restricted to North Portugal is puzzling, considering the more pronounced impact of the Muslin rule in south Iberia and the widespread presence of African slaves throughout the country, and deserves further investigation.
 
You are a liar. I did not abuse you, I cited scientific research.

You call me a 'moron' because you need to rely on insults.

Lets see if you can behave like a civilized gentleman...

YOU are the liar, or, should I say, the one who tries to paint false pictures. You are trying to create an inaccurate impression about any entire population because you have some unidentified problem with them. Suggesting that the Portuguese are less than European...LOL.

I don't need to rely on insults, but people like you who do things like present false impressions are hardly behaving like gentlemen...
 
You have in effect conceded the debate. You rely on a study which clearly had no samples from Portugal.
The studies all show that Portugal has substantial north African ancestry on the male side and substantial sub-Saharan ancestry on the female side.

What are you talking about? The Beleza study is ALL about Portugal...LOL
 
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