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Immigration ISlamic State step foot in Europe

In terms of tolerance for others and control of people's lives, Islam is where christianity was 500 years ago when Europeans first began exploring the Americas. And many Native people in the Americas wish they had had much stricter immigration laws then. Perhaps we can learn from their mistake.
 
In terms of tolerance for others and control of people's lives, Islam is where christianity was 500 years ago when Europeans first began exploring the Americas. And many Native people in the Americas wish they had had much stricter immigration laws then. Perhaps we can learn from their mistake.

People often compare Christianity and Islam and think that for several centuries Muslims will be as Christians today (because Islam is younger and time should pass to modernize).

But things are different.

Muslims and for 500 years will behave much like today and yesterday.

Because nature of Islam is different than Christianity.

Certainly, Muslims adopt the achievements technological progress (their scholars confer about everything that could be a hindrance to Islam, and if there is an obstacle such things are unacceptable).

But Islam is based, according Muslim believers, on Quran, Muslim holy book, that is real God words revealed to prophet Muhammad.

No one has the right to change a single word of holy book, because they are God words.

Because all Muslims learn Quran, it is clear that lessons, rules and behavior cannot be distinguished.

Muslims cannot renounce Jihad and Sharia law which non-Muslims in the mildest way represents subservient in relation to Muslims.

Again, Islam is different compared to all other creations and it should be understood.
 
I find it odd that a European Christian, or at least a European from a Christian tradition, has a better acquaintance with the Koran than with the Bible.

“Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 “But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 29:16-18)

Go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” (1 Samuel 15:3-4)

I could go on and on...but surely you see the point.
This is the inspired word of God if you are a believer, even if it is the Old Testament. Yet today,no Christian leader advocates a return to such barbarism, even if some of them, out of cowardice, or the corrosive effects of racism or extreme nationalism fail to forcibly oppose such actions by their congregations.

The solution to this issue is not some Holy War against Islam as a whole, and nor is it the abrogation of the civil rights of Muslims in the west whether they are natives or immigrants.
 
Old testament is the story of Jews through a religiouw look
new testament is the mix of Στοικοι Stoic philosophy with Monotheism
Christianity did the same from 313 to late religious wars who last even 100 years,
by religion history comapring, is like the after the great Schisma times, closer to Reformation wars,
Christianity once had 2 Popes, 2 patriarchs in jerusalem etc etc,
As a clear war, WW2 was more more massive destruction,
but when analyze the modern IS case we see non locals, much non locals, probably mercenairies, or foundamentalists, who kidnap or sell even kids,
the IS is something away from situations we knew as war until today,
the IS and the other in Nigeria, as also taliban before years is a complex case where Religion is also used in order to change status, rulling families, system, etc etc.
by kidnaping 200 virgin christian girls at age of 12 in Nigeria to sell them, I do not think someone gives glory to Allah or God,
and that is what makes me wonder on what is behind, and makes me wonder who and for what would buy them,
on the other hand, we all know about the 'rich' who go to SE Asia for same reason,
I would say it more like an international mafia which hide the crime behind religion,
or they do what Quran demands (post#40). who knows their deep inner soul.
even in Troyan war we see mix of Gods in war,
WW2 if we exclude the extreme acts and holocaust was a typical war,
what happens now in IS is above a typical war due to extreme acts, made by foreigners,
I agree that a 'Crusade' is a stupid solution,
but can we accept back to Europe all these?
Why we pass NAZI's from trials about war criminality,
SHOULD WE DO THE SAME WITH THOSE WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SYRRIA BUT WENT TO CREATE IS AND ITS CRIMINALITY?
WORLD search and send ex-yugoslavian 'captains' to Netherlands for war criminals,

Are we gonna leave the IS outside from war criminality?
 
My point was that it is patently false to claim that Islam is unique in having holy scripture which advocates forcible conversion and the murder of non believers. Whether you like it or not, the Old Testament is part of the canon of Christianity. None of you have yet to acknowledge that...The point is that we no longer preach such precepts, and some Muslims do...

Also, none of what I posted could logically be interpreted to mean that I think that forcible conversion and the forcible imposition of Sharia Law in the west should be tolerated. If you think so, you haven't read my posts.

It's important, no matter how emotionally charged the issue, to still use the basic precepts of logic and reason, and to understand what others are posting...
 
I find it odd that a European Christian, or at least a European from a Christian tradition, has a better acquaintance with the Koran than with the Bible.

“Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 “But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 29:16-18)

Go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” (1 Samuel 15:3-4)

I could go on and on...but surely you see the point.
This is the inspired word of God if you are a believer, even if it is the Old Testament. Yet today,no Christian leader advocates a return to such barbarism, even if some of them, out of cowardice, or the corrosive effects of racism or extreme nationalism fail to forcibly oppose such actions by their congregations.

The solution to this issue is not some Holy War against Islam as a whole, and nor is it the abrogation of the civil rights of Muslims in the west whether they are natives or immigrants.

It's not true that Christians are oblivious to that passage it's just they didn't see a reason to mention it. We need to deal with the problem realistically and not make it into a big right-left political thing or a holy war. If our government finds just reasons to be suspicious and reduce "rights" of Muslims(I doubt it would every come to that) they should do it. It won't be because of prejudice, racism, etc. just practicality. Our people want to be safe so how do we do it in the most effective way, while not being robots and of course considering the comfort of Muslims or whoever?

The way Christians believe all the differnt parts of the Bible should be interpreted is basically the same and also varies. Honestly, I don't care whether it was God or man who gave the Jews the idea to conquer peoples. The Bible in my opinion should be seen as writings written by an ethnic group who God revealed himself to and had chosen to do his will(eventually bring other people to him). That doesn't mean every last letter in the Bible has to be 100% perfect in every way, God's will, etc. You can't expect the Jews to be perfect.

For example the creation story and the story of Noah were obviously traditionally stories the Jew's pagan ancestors and or many pagans in bronze age west Asia believed in. It never says God came down and told them those stories. They took an already known story that originally gave credit to multiple Gods and they replaced it with one God, probably because they story was assumed to be true by most people(Jew and gentile) at the time it was written by the Jews. For crying out loud who would every expect the Jews and their ancestors to keep the story of the origins of the world perfect for thousands of years orally?

Btw Angela, you have to look at what lead up to that passage. Also, put yourself in the Jews perceptive. Picture the primitive and harsh world they lived in. Picture the oppression, shame, and danger they faced. Picture a people who went against everything you stand for, were a danger to your people, etc. Picture an incredible God who made your small nation his chosen people, promised prosperity in a chosen land(where your enemies live), who told you that it's the destiny of your people and the world to conquer your enemies. If you were literally in that situation you would probably do the same as the Jews did.
 
All y'all need to stop philosophizing about politics and religion. The way to stop ISIS is not debate about Islam, compare it to Christianity, etc. Big deal if you see a certain religion as flawed, that's not going to solve problems. The best way to solve it is to be united(not debate over ideological divisions) to solve this problem, and simply treat it as the threat it is. It's laughable how undeceive and non-unified people in the west are. We see a serious threat and instead of acting immediately and unified we debate and philosophy.

People need to get over the right-left ideology divide when it comes to ISIS and pretty much any social issue. Here's how I think both make attempts to prevent threats by enemies difficult.It's difficult to be unified and make any aggressive moves against threats because the liberal establishment(or at least the main public influence on people) is largely based on anti-patriotism(creates a divide), anti-westernism(which is self-destructive for any nation) and is out of their element viewing non-westerners as villains and being patriotic of their western nation. It's difficult to be reasonable and accept mistakes(improve our nations) because the right has blind-patriotism where they see it as a crime to critic their nation and views non-western people as evil and inferior. That's not accurate for all people who consider themselves on the right or left, but it's a description of the extremes on both sides.

If we eliminate those extreme views and divides I think the west will be much more successful. I know there's free press, but just about every popular comedy-like TV shows main themes are raciest jokes, homosexual or just controversial "bad" sexual jokes-drama, putting down right-wing views, and admiring the dumb-rebellious-un orthodox character.

They influence people in a way that makes the harmful divides in the west stronger, and almost always supporting the extreme version of the left.

Our news stations seem to be more of gossip girls with shiny outfits to make people think they're wise, than people who want to make the right-type of influence on the public. Telling the world what Obama's plans are to defeat ISIS should not be on the news. The news encourages social divides(Fergusonis a great example) usually supporting the left.
 
The solution to this issue is not some Holy War against Islam as a whole, and nor is it the abrogation of the civil rights of Muslims in the west whether they are natives or immigrants.

The most important are human rights and freedoms.

Of course, in real life, in mixed environment where non-Muslims and Muslims live, tensions exist always, it depends among other things, from the number of Muslims in any area.

And non-Muslims cannot escape the provisions of Muslim rules and Sharia law.

I will give here one example, it refers to the rules of marriage.

Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a non-Muslim man.

In mixed environment certainly there are situations where non-Muslim man and Muslim woman fall in love which each other (although generally Muslim families strictly kept young girls).

But it is not allowed and non-Muslim man can have difficult destiny.

...
There is only one way to resolve the situation with a happy ending.

And whole society (in that area) can relax because it avoided explosive situation.

Only solution is that non-Muslim man convert to Islam, and his children will be true Muslims.

Yes it is only solution, but this small example shows how non-Muslims take dhimmi position, and obey the Islamic rule and Sharia law.

It is necessary to understand Muslim supremacy in Islam.

Also, restrictions exist and for men.

Muslim man can marry Christian, Jewish or Sabian woman, but it is not allowed to marry atheist woman, zoroastrian, hindu, buddhist woman etc. In practice there is connivance, for men there are no such strictness as for women.

...

Ruling on a Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman and vice versa (Muslim website)

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim from any other religion, whether from among the Jews or Christians, or any other kaafir religion. It is not permissible for her to marry a Jew, a Christian, a Magian, a communist, an idol-worshipper, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikoon) invite you to the Fire, but Allaah invites (you) to Paradise and forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

Imam al-Tabari said:
What is said concerning the interpretation of the words “And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you” is that what Allaah meant by that is that Allaah has forbidden the believing women to give birth to a mushrik, no matter what kind of shirk he believes in. So, O believers, do not give your daughters in marriage to them, for that is forbidden to you. For you to give them in marriage to a believing slave who believes in Allaah and His Messenger and that which he brought from Allaah is better for you than to give them in marriage to a free mushrik even if he is of noble descent and honourable origins, even if you like his descent and background…



But it is not permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Magian (Zoroastrian) woman or a communist woman or an idol-worshipping woman, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress), even though she pleases you”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]
 
The most important are human rights and freedoms.

Of course, in real life, in mixed environment where non-Muslims and Muslims live, tensions exist always, it depends among other things, from the number of Muslims in any area.

And non-Muslims cannot escape the provisions of Muslim rules and Sharia law.

I will give here one example, it refers to the rules of marriage.

Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a non-Muslim man.

In mixed environment certainly there are situations where non-Muslim man and Muslim woman fall in love which each other (although generally Muslim families strictly kept young girls).

But it is not allowed and non-Muslim man can have difficult destiny.

...
There is only one way to resolve the situation with a happy ending.

And whole society (in that area) can relax because it avoided explosive situation.

Only solution is that non-Muslim man convert to Islam, and his children will be true Muslims.

Yes it is only solution, but this small example shows how non-Muslims take dhimmi position, and obey the Islamic rule and Sharia law.

It is necessary to understand Muslim supremacy in Islam.

Also, restrictions exist and for men.

Muslim man can marry Christian, Jewish or Sabian woman, but it is not allowed to marry atheist woman, zoroastrian, hindu, buddhist woman etc. In practice there is connivance, for men there are no such strictness as for women.

...

Ruling on a Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman and vice versa (Muslim website)

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim from any other religion, whether from among the Jews or Christians, or any other kaafir religion. It is not permissible for her to marry a Jew, a Christian, a Magian, a communist, an idol-worshipper, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikoon) invite you to the Fire, but Allaah invites (you) to Paradise and forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

Imam al-Tabari said:
What is said concerning the interpretation of the words “And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you” is that what Allaah meant by that is that Allaah has forbidden the believing women to give birth to a mushrik, no matter what kind of shirk he believes in. So, O believers, do not give your daughters in marriage to them, for that is forbidden to you. For you to give them in marriage to a believing slave who believes in Allaah and His Messenger and that which he brought from Allaah is better for you than to give them in marriage to a free mushrik even if he is of noble descent and honourable origins, even if you like his descent and background…



But it is not permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Magian (Zoroastrian) woman or a communist woman or an idol-worshipping woman, etc.

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress), even though she pleases you”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]


I truly don't understand this obsession with the fact that Sharia law forbids the marriage of non Muslim men and Muslim women. This is the big problem that illustrates the imposition of Sharia law on westerners? This isn't imposing the law on others. This affects the non-Muslim only tangentially.

Let's take the example of Talmudic (Jewish law). Jews are not allowed to marry anyone who is non-Jewish, and for the last approximately 2,000 years, "Jewish" has been interpreted to mean born of a Jewish mother. To the more Orthodox, a convert mother doesn't even count. It has to be a Jewish woman by blood lines. I know people of my own generation whose families sat shiva for them when they married outside the faith. (To sit shiva is what you do when someone has died...cover all mirrors, everyone comes to pay their condolences etc.) It's no joke. Now, that's becoming less and less common, but it certainly still happens among the Orthodox, and definitely among the Ultra-Orthodox.Does that mean that Talmudic Law is being imposed on non-Jews? No, it doesn't. It just means non Jews get caught in the cross-fire.

To your other point, this hasn't caused any huge "tension" in American society. It is what it is...you know up front that many Jewish people are only going to be seriously interested in other Jews. Try getting a date as a non-Jew at Brandeis University. For some gentile/Jewish couples, conversion is the answer; a good number of women convert to Judaism to make things easier. Or, the couple practices neither religion, or some secularized version of both. (That way, the kids get two sets of presents in December, one for Christmas, and one for Hannukah! :)) I know quite a few Italian women who have married Jewish men, particularly professional women. They joke that they should form an organization.:) The marriages work out just as well, and sometimes better than the many Italian/Irish or Italian Irish/German marriages, despite the difference in religion.

I think it's time for some Europeans to joint the 21st century.

This can also happen irrespective of religious affiliations. My second cousin in Italy was forbidden to marry the young man of her choice, and it took five long years, and their belief that she would have a breakdown for them to relent. The young man was Italian and Catholic. My own parents had their own opinions on whom I should marry in terms of ethnic groups, although it took the form of gentle persuasion rather than coercion. Are we going to get ourselves into a lather about these kinds of things too?

As for the situation regarding non-citizens, you don't have the same rights as a resident alien as you do as a citizen. Even less so as someone without legal residency. There are tons of foreigners who seem to want to get married in Italy. It is extremely difficult to navigate the paper work, and everything depends upon the diplomatic agreements between the countries.

I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than this to convince me that western governments are permitting the imposition of Sharia Law.
 
I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than this to convince me that this situation proves that western governments are permitting the imposition of Sharia Law.

Example which I gave is not concerned that.

Maybe later we will get to this topics, that are most comprehensive.

...
An example is related to the life, ordinary human life.

Man non-Muslim and Muslim girl can fall in love, life writing novels, and wish to get married.

Since it is forbidden, there is only solution is that non-Muslim convert to Islam, and many non-Muslim men do so in such situations.

...
The most important are human rights and freedoms.

In mixed environment (where live non-Muslims and Muslims) it can not be avoided tensions, on various issues, I gave only small example from life.

Because, what if non-Muslim doesn't want to convert to Islam, and he decided to marry a Muslim woman, and she loves him and wants to be his wife.

What are their (his and her) rights and freedoms?

What should we respect here: rights and freedoms and free choice of people or Muslim rule and Sharia law?

The answer is not easy, because non-Muslim man can have consequences, anyone can imagine what.
...

It is only small example from ordinary life, nothing more.

But and through this small example can be discerned Muslim supremacy.
...

Islam is a big, and probably it will continue to expand further and will include a more areas in the world.

What is the problem of us non-Muslims, we look at things from our perspectives (Atheist, Christian, modern etc.), but Islam is completely different.

I have already said, Islam is a totality, includes a full human life and the whole society.
 
I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than this to convince me that western governments are permitting the imposition of Sharia Law.

Example which I gave is not related for it.
You're right for global/government topics.
Maybe, we will come later to the more comprehensive topics.
...
But I gave only one example from life, ordinary human life.
Non-Muslim man and Muslim woman can fall in love, life writing novels, and marriage happen.
But it is forbidden, not allowed. Only solution in that case is that non-Muslim man convert to Islam, and many non-Muslims do so.
...
The most important are human rights and freedoms.
What if non-Muslim man doesn’t want to convert to Islam, and she loves him, and wants to be his wife.
What are their (his and her) rights?
...
What should we respect: their rights and freedoms and their free will, or Muslim rule and Sharia law.
Answer is not easy, because non-Muslim man can have consequences, everyone can imagine what.
And through this small example can be discerned Muslim supremacy.
...
Islam is a big, and probably it will spread further, and will include more areas in the world.
Islam is totality, it includes full human life and the whole society.
Problem of us non-Muslims (all the same Atheists, Christians, etc.) is what we look at things from own perspective, but Islam is completely different.
Sometimes Muslims are right when they criticize others that they do not know Islam.
The essence is dialogue, and generally for dialogue with Muslims non-Muslims must have some knowledge.
 
It's not true that Christians are oblivious to that passage it's just they didn't see a reason to mention it. We need to deal with the problem realistically and not make it into a big right-left political thing or a holy war. If our government finds just reasons to be suspicious and reduce "rights" of Muslims(I doubt it would every come to that) they should do it. It won't be because of prejudice, racism, etc. just practicality. Our people want to be safe so how do we do it in the most effective way, while not being robots and of course considering the comfort of Muslims or whoever?

The way Christians believe all the differnt parts of the Bible should be interpreted is basically the same and also varies. Honestly, I don't care whether it was God or man who gave the Jews the idea to conquer peoples. The Bible in my opinion should be seen as writings written by an ethnic group who God revealed himself to and had chosen to do his will(eventually bring other people to him). That doesn't mean every last letter in the Bible has to be 100% perfect in every way, God's will, etc. You can't expect the Jews to be perfect.

For example the creation story and the story of Noah were obviously traditionally stories the Jew's pagan ancestors and or many pagans in bronze age west Asia believed in. It never says God came down and told them those stories. They took an already known story that originally gave credit to multiple Gods and they replaced it with one God, probably because they story was assumed to be true by most people(Jew and gentile) at the time it was written by the Jews. For crying out loud who would every expect the Jews and their ancestors to keep the story of the origins of the world perfect for thousands of years orally?

Btw Angela, you have to look at what lead up to that passage. Also, put yourself in the Jews perceptive. Picture the primitive and harsh world they lived in. Picture the oppression, shame, and danger they faced. Picture a people who went against everything you stand for, were a danger to your people, etc. Picture an incredible God who made your small nation his chosen people, promised prosperity in a chosen land(where your enemies live), who told you that it's the destiny of your people and the world to conquer your enemies. If you were literally in that situation you would probably do the same as the Jews did.


I assure you that I don't place myself in judgment of the ancient Hebrews. Those were very different times, and a different state of moral development. Also, I couldn't agree more that the Old Testament stories are allegories, and not to be taken literally. No one in my faith has been taught to take the creation story literally for generations. Nor have we been taught for hundreds of years that unbelievers should be forcibly converted to save their souls. The Inquisition was a long time ago. Unfortunately, ideas like this are still current in some forms of Islam although they have been abandoned by most Christians.

I also couldn't agree more that this shouldn't be a political football for right or left. These kinds of political divisions and acrimony have paralyzed us when dealing with many important issues; I sincerely hope the same thing doesn't happen with this one.

So, we are in quite amazing agreement here, Fire-Haired.
 
Example which I gave is not related for it.
You're right for global/government topics.
Maybe, we will come later to the more comprehensive topics.
...
But I gave only one example from life, ordinary human life.
Non-Muslim man and Muslim woman can fall in love, life writing novels, and marriage happen.
But it is forbidden, not allowed. Only solution in that case is that non-Muslim man convert to Islam, and many non-Muslims do so.
...
The most important are human rights and freedoms.
What if non-Muslim man doesn’t want to convert to Islam, and she loves him, and wants to be his wife.
What are their (his and her) rights?
...
What should we respect: their rights and freedoms and their free will, or Muslim rule and Sharia law.
Answer is not easy, because non-Muslim man can have consequences, everyone can imagine what.
And through this small example can be discerned Muslim supremacy.
...
Islam is a big, and probably it will spread further, and will include more areas in the world.
Islam is totality, it includes full human life and the whole society.
Problem of us non-Muslims (all the same Atheists, Christians, etc.) is what we look at things from own perspective, but Islam is completely different.
Sometimes Muslims are right when they criticize others that they do not know Islam.
The essence is dialogue, and generally for dialogue with Muslims non-Muslims must have some knowledge.


Nothing in your example is specific to Islam. It happens whenever people of different faiths fall in love, whether it is Jew and Christian, Christian and Muslim, Greek Orthodox Catholic versus Roman Catholic or Protestant versus Catholic. The two people then have choices. If their respective religions are equally important to both of them, they separate. If the religious affiliation is weaker for one of them, that person might convert. Or, they both might be rather secularized and say 'a pox on both your houses' and marry only in a civil ceremony. That's how things are done in civilized societies. It doesn't call for civil strife.

Oh, and as I said, this doesn't apply only to religions.


We have moved beyond this in the West.

For those unfamiliar with the text:
Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
And the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.


Now, you'll have to excuse me, as I don't think that further discussion of this issue will be fruitful.
 
I think that is a problem.

Britain,
Islamists almost kick out a family from a bus of magic transfer,
the reason they song with their little daughter the song about 'Peppa the Pig'
Islamists consider it racist to sing about a cartoon with pig in a bus,

http://www.tribune.gr/world/news/ar...udousan-tin-peppa-gourounaki-fotografies.html

it is in Greek, I am sure you will find it in English, and if you don't I am willing to translate it.
what is next? punch someone cause he is eating 'hot dog'?


AND I ASK AGAIN?
MUST WE PASS JIHADISTS FROM ABROAD I.S. TO TRIAL FOR WAR CRIMINALITY?
or only Europeans make war crimes?

About the god of Christians, I advise someones to read Σωζομενος Sozomenow and Schythopolis.
there were another holocaust took place,
but in Europe, although the center of Christianity, WW2 and holocaust did not took place as God's will.
cause we overpass religion,
Yet as Europeans we search and find many war criminals and pass them to trial, so the whole world will know what is war, and what war crime,
now isn't it time that Muslim must learn to live beside me, and I am free to eat sausage every where, (holy places excluded)
someone tell me what is racism?
to sing about a cartoon pig hero?
or to force women to wear burka?

at last, I was born free, away from religious stupidities, I have my rules of religion, but why I must the others to obey me?
why it is racist and soon forbiden a song about a pig in a public bus? why?
is Islam a religion with priviledges and paganism is not?
in my religion we do not have even temples,
we must choose,
Freedom under laws who have passed from a law comitte and a parliament, based upon human rights?
or Freedom under the laws of a 'Phrofet' who ever he is or was, based upon 'the word of GOD'?

Besides, revolt in Tynis refugges in Italy,
revolt in Algieria refugges in france,
revolt in Libya refugges to Italy and Greece
revolt in Egypt refugges in Greece,
revolt in Syria refugges to Turkey and Greece,
why refugges do not go to Saudis? their heavenly holy place?
'yes I know 'global conspiracy theories' :laughing:
 
All y'all need to stop philosophizing about politics and religion. The way to stop ISIS is not debate about Islam, compare it to Christianity, etc. Big deal if you see a certain religion as flawed, that's not going to solve problems. The best way to solve it is to be united(not debate over ideological divisions) to solve this problem, and simply treat it as the threat it is. It's laughable how undeceive and non-unified people in the west are. We see a serious threat and instead of acting immediately and unified we debate and philosophy.


Maybe we members a little dragged out of the thread, but it is good to develop a dialogue. Actually, it's great to hear different views, especially as the background theme is very complex. The intention of ISIS is a World Caliphate, and it is very complex, and there are more topics that can be discussed.
 
Did anyone read the original post of this thread? You guys went way off subject. This isn't about politics, validity of certain religions, etc. it's about how the the west can defeat ISIS. Like I said before you guys are mostly arguing about subjects that only divide the west and prevent it from defeating threats.
 
I think it's time for some Europeans to joint the 21st century.

Angela it has taken Europe centuries for Women, homosexuals to get their rights and Sharia will only turn the clock back to the dark ages. There is nothing to romanticize about it. Sharia is the law of 'Allah' (so its religious law dominated by Males) and that takes different interpretations in different countries. Much of Sharia law CANNOT be implied anyway in democratic countries because stoning to death someone who drinks alchahol and hanging homosexuals is not allowed where the state law is ABOVE the Sharia law. Women only inherit 50% of Man because thats what sharia thinks of them. According to the Koran DEATH is permissible when anything is considered a sin as the verses state it clearly. Even in places like London we heard of honour killings just becase the daughter decided not to wear the hijab!! The Jews ONLY ignore their teachings of the Talmunds and the Torah and the fanatics are MUCH smaller in number then any Muslim community so religious law does not count much. Jews these days are MUCH more secular in nature.

Christians had a man called Christ who turned the Torah upside down with new rules so DEATH was not permissible anymore and the inquisition anyway is a thing of many centuries ago and not ONE Christian dominant country has religious law as law of the country. Sharia law is not welcome because we have fought for our freedom long enough. Welcome to the 21st century.
 
Anyone thinks that ISIS mindset just started this year?


welcome to 2014
 
It's not true that Christians are oblivious to that passage it's just they didn't see a reason to mention it. We need to deal with the problem realistically and not make it into a big right-left political thing or a holy war. If our government finds just reasons to be suspicious and reduce "rights" of Muslims(I doubt it would every come to that) they should do it. It won't be because of prejudice, racism, etc. just practicality. Our people want to be safe so how do we do it in the most effective way, while not being robots and of course considering the comfort of Muslims or whoever?

The way Christians believe all the differnt parts of the Bible should be interpreted is basically the same and also varies. Honestly, I don't care whether it was God or man who gave the Jews the idea to conquer peoples. The Bible in my opinion should be seen as writings written by an ethnic group who God revealed himself to and had chosen to do his will(eventually bring other people to him). That doesn't mean every last letter in the Bible has to be 100% perfect in every way, God's will, etc. You can't expect the Jews to be perfect.

For example the creation story and the story of Noah were obviously traditionally stories the Jew's pagan ancestors and or many pagans in bronze age west Asia believed in. It never says God came down and told them those stories. They took an already known story that originally gave credit to multiple Gods and they replaced it with one God, probably because they story was assumed to be true by most people(Jew and gentile) at the time it was written by the Jews. For crying out loud who would every expect the Jews and their ancestors to keep the story of the origins of the world perfect for thousands of years orally?

Btw Angela, you have to look at what lead up to that passage. Also, put yourself in the Jews perceptive. Picture the primitive and harsh world they lived in. Picture the oppression, shame, and danger they faced. Picture a people who went against everything you stand for, were a danger to your people, etc. Picture an incredible God who made your small nation his chosen people, promised prosperity in a chosen land(where your enemies live), who told you that it's the destiny of your people and the world to conquer your enemies. If you were literally in that situation you would probably do the same as the Jews did.

Fire-haired, I assure you that I do not place myself in judgment of the ancient Hebrews. It was a different time and a different level of moral development.

Nor does the religion in which I was raised teach that all the Old Testament stories should be taken as literally true. It hasn't taught for generations that the Creation story, for example, is literally true.

The point was just that some of the precepts which are so objectionable in the Koran can also be found in the Holy Scripture of Christianity. It's just, as Aberdeen so succinctly put it, that "In terms of tolerance for others and control of people's lives, Islam is where christianity was 500 years ago."
 
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