Isolating WHG, EEF, EHG, CHG Traits

[Fire Haired14]

The revelation of DNA, especially ancient DNA, on European origins, is really unbelievable. Ancient DNA is like going back in time.Something it can't tell us though is what the various genetically distinct ancestors of Europeans looked like.

Today every "race" has a set of features every member carries. Europeans/white people and Africans/Black people are viewed as having a single uniform look but there's really a lot of variation in each group. A handful of traits all every European or African shares, especially shared skin color, I think makes it seem like everyone looks the same.

I wonder if the same was true for WHG or EEF or etc. Maybe each group had a racially-defining trait every member carried. Or at the very least certain traits were really popular and exclusive to a certain group. We already know that in most of Europe the WHGs almost exclusively had blue eye color, that could have been one of their racially-defining traits.

All those once racially defining traits might be unnoticed today and all put under the white person category due to a shared skin color. But 8,000 years ago they were used to identify whether someone was a "WHG" or an "EEF."

Hispanics are a great case example. One Mexican might clearly look more Spanish than Aztec, while another Mexican clearly looks more Aztec than Spanish, but Americans view each as looking Mexican. The "Hispanic look" has a huge amount of variation. Obviously, the "white look" has less variation but I do think there's considerable variation that could be due to racially different groups mixing similar to what happened in Latin America.

 

[Fire Haired14]

A most obvious way to isolate traits specific to ancient group is looking at the people who trace more ancestry to the group than anyone else. For CHG that would Geogrians, EEF Sardinians and Basque, WHG and Euro HGs in general Lithuanians, ANE Native Americans, Steppe Udmurts.

 

[Fire Haired14]

This my first prediction. I think EEF is the source for the basic white girl look which would be appropriate considering EEF:s legacy is mostly seen in mtDNA. It's super common and more common in girls than boys. Thin face, long thin nose.

Sardinian.

 

[davef]

The first photo up top with the hood looks freakishly close to my sister. Did someone dress her up and snap a picture of her?

 

[Joey D]

Is that Eminem?

 

[Fire Haired14]

Is that Eminem?

Yes. Basic white girl.

 

[MOESAN]

Your pictures don't illustrate typical Sardinian looks, I think. Even if they are not to exclude as possibilities among their mix. The second ("blond") male has very 'mediterranean'like features for bones, and I think without too much certainty (one angle only) he is more on the 'dabubian EEF' look than on the more southern 'levantin' variant spite they share some common traits.
BTW I see here again numerous pictures of Sardinians with light eyes, what is very very far from the reality. I don't charge you, but it's beginning to become boring...

 

[MOESAN]

concerning Mesolithic Europeans they have at least to sets of very opposed features (skeleton/crania), the most often being a mix of both but not always; even in a restricted area like Danube valley (around Iron Gate) in Balkans they shew this duality, not always level.

 

[MOESAN]

At this stage of my knowledge I don't see why EEF look could be more represented among females than males, and what could be the mt-DNA dominant role in this. The secondary sexual characteres in bones don't change too drastically the mores striking features of people in face and skull although they play a role.

 

[davef]

Fire haired, is that Eminem in the second pic from top? He's 100 percent north and Central European descent
Quote:

"He is of English, as well as some German, Scottish, and Swiss-German, ancestry"

He doesn't have Sardinian heritage but should be about 50 percent EEF or Early European Farmer, as are most north/central euros.

 

[Fire Haired14]

At this stage of my knowledge I don't see why EEF look could be more represented among females than males, and what could be the mt-DNA dominant role in this. The secondary sexual characteres in bones don't change too drastically the mores striking features of people in face and skull although they play a role.

I know. I didn't claim EEF features are more prominent in women. I just said it would be appropriate if a trait common in EEF females is common EEF-admixed European females today because a large share of European mtDNA is definitely of EEF origin (especially H1, H3, H5, T2b, J1c, K1a).

 

[Fire Haired14]

Here's a "look/type" I've noticed is really common in European males. And I often sometimes see similar stuff in African American males. It's male specific. Any thoughts on whether it could be a WHG or EEF or EHG or CHG left over?

It's defined by a wide jaw, wide forehead, somewhat wide nose (compared to thin nose especially common in females). It's a very manly look, caused by a large and strong skull, which is probably why it is male specific. Maybe it's just a basic human male look and exists in every part of the world.

Here are some examples.
Zayn. Half English/Irish, hald Pakistani.

Chris Hemsworth. English?

Yelawolf. American musician, I assume Northwest European.

 

[Fire Haired14]

BTW I see here again numerous pictures of Sardinians with light eyes, what is very very far from the reality. I don't charge you, but it's beginning to become boring...

I agree. Because of that Wikipedia pages for people groups from SC Asia are littered with blondes and redheads who obviously don't represent the average person from those people groups.

 

[Promenade]

Phenotype is not constant over time, environment and epigenetic factors make this discussion trivial. Morphology evolves even within populations without outside genetic influence.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/01/first-americans/hodges-text


"Together these remnants may help explain an enduring mystery about the peopling of the Americas: If Native Americans are descendants of Asian trailblazers who migrated into the Americas toward the end of the last ice age, why don’t they look like their ancient ancestors?"

"To archaeologist Jim Chatters, co-leader of the Hoyo Negro research team, these are all indications that the earliest Americans were what he calls “Northern Hemisphere wild-type” populations: bold and aggressive, with hypermasculine males and diminutive, subordinate females. And this, he thinks, is why the earliest Americans’ facial features look so different from those of later Native Americans. These were risk-taking pioneers, and the toughest men were taking the spoils and winning fights over women. As a result, their robust traits and features were being selected over the softer and more domestic ones evident in later, more settled populations."


"Chatters’s wild-type hypothesis is speculative, but his team’s findings at Hoyo Negro are not. Naia has the facial features typical of the earliest Americans as well as the genetic signatures common to modern Native Americans. This signals that the two groups don’t look different because the earliest populations were replaced by later groups migrating from Asia, as some anthropologists have asserted. Instead they look different because the first Americans changed after they got here."

 

[ROS]

In this of genetics, without being a specialisa, there are structural and conjunctural issues, I consider that both halogroups and mitochondrial have a structural aspect, while the phenotype and even the autosomic aspect are conjunctural, in Spain we have a name and two surnames that genetically coincide with the halogroup Y and the mitochondrial, that are structural, that remain is clouded or not, leaves that leaves the stones or brutal cold, is a structural part that changes very slowly, however the phenotypic question is quite conjunctural, several examples: the American Indians that it seems were a Siberian people that happened to the American continent, the pigmentation phenotype has changed brutally since they were in siberia to be in the equator, nevertheless the halogroup Y and the mitochondrial have hardly changed, that to say of the autsomic aspect, I have come to think that even culture is more structural than the autsomic aspect, ireland and Spain we are going to suppose that at the end of the Bronze Age they had a similar population, in three thousand and something years the climate has influenced determinantement in the autosomic question, logically Ireland is much more to the north than Spain and especially the green which is seen is based on cloudy days and shorter than Spain.

This difference of climate has favored through the millennia that in the Iberian peninsula, the neolithic characteristics predominate over others and in Ireland the opposite, I mentioned in passing the thousands of cases of skin cancer that occur in Spain, that is to say that even is being produced a process of adaptation to the environment, something similar will happen in the United States of America in the southern states, despite their northern European ancestry the climate will become increasingly Neolithic, although it is true that less speed than in Spain since the modern man is less exposed to the climate.

 

[Promenade]

ireland and Spain we are going to suppose that at the end of the Bronze Age they had a similar population, in three thousand and something years the climate has influenced determinantement in the autosomic question, logically Ireland is much more to the north than Spain and especially the green which is seen is based on cloudy days and shorter than Spain.

They both had Celtic influence around the Bronze Age but autosomally they were not equivalent even at the time. Ireland received a much a larger amount of steppe ancestry in the Bronze Age, essentially a replacement, while in Spain we see the retention of Neolthic ancestry. The ancestral compositions of these places in the Bronze Age were not similar, although I see the point you're trying to make.

 

[ROS]

If in Spain and Ireland the structure is similar, ie are the countries with more R1B and H1 of Europe, because in the conjuncture, phenotype and autosoma are so different ?, something fails.

And I see that most likely to explain this difference is an adptaci?n to the climate.


But what is the cause?


Could we think that R1b Western does not come from the steppe?

 

[Promenade]

If in Spain and Ireland the structure is similar, ie are the countries with more R1B and H1 of Europe, because in the conjuncture, phenotype and autosoma are so different ?, something fails.

And I see that most likely to explain this difference is an adptaci�n to the climate.


But what is the cause?


Could we think that R1b Western does not come from the steppe?

They've had differing autosomal make up since the Bronze age though, it's not as if Ireland and Spain were both a perfect mix of Steppe and Neolithic ancestry at one point where Neolithic ancestry won out in Spain and Steppe ancestry in Ireland because of the environment. We have samples from the Bronze age and we can see that the Rathlin individuals from Bronze Age Ireland look like central European steppe related people while Bronze age Iberian samples have very minute steppe ancestry if any. The Mediterranean had a larger population during the neolithic so that's probably why the genetic impact during the bronze age wasn't as great in Iberia.

Also it is important to note, like you said, that we are not 100 percent sure that west European R1b originated in the Steppe, it could have a genesis in the Balkans or possibly elsewhere. I think it's clear that R1b and steppe ancestry came in tandem to the British isles in the Bronze age though.

 

[MOESAN]

I know. I didn't claim EEF features are more prominent in women. I just said it would be appropriate if a trait common in EEF females is common EEF-admixed European females today because a large share of European mtDNA is definitely of EEF origin (especially H1, H3, H5, T2b, J1c, K1a).

es, but I think the somatic role of mito's is not too closely linked to the skeletal features; it's not knowledge but intuition. so, if %'s of mtDNA haplo's are partly indicative of a pop origin and then of some physical trends in this pop, these trends are linked to the whole genome and are for the most shared by males and females of the group. But we know mt lineages have as Y lineages only a loose tie with autosomals.
so with males emigrations and exogamy the first statistical links between mtDNA and whole genome of the pop where this mtDNA was common are disrupted and it's of importance to know the origine of the males lineages (I think in diverses pops where Y and mt DNA seem inherited from different pops. We know all Europeans show today very close %'s of diverse mt haplos, and the proportions of diverses features are not the same all over the continent.
Y

 

[MOESAN]

of course, when I say "males lineages" I think "males groups origin" not "Y-haplos.