Italian dialects or languages?

[Aberdeen]

This is why I keep coming back to this site; in the midst of all the dross, there is the gold of finding an erudite person who actually knows who Pele is, and has the wit (and subtlety) to make the appropriate reference.

I imagine you may have figured out that in one of my past incarnations I was a litigator. I have reduced more than one very tough and supposedly frightening man to tears before 10 AM. :grin: Not that it was difficult to do, really; most people's minds are full of mush, and the vast majority are incapable of coherent, logical thought. I do find it difficult to restrain myself at times, even in other settings. Old habits die hard.

I've given some consideration to the following images as possible avatars if I get tired of looking at my beautiful coastline. What do you think? Perhaps I could ask people to send me PMs indicating their preference.

What about Kali?

Perhaps I should pay tribute to my classical heritage with her?

Maybe it would be best to stick very close to home with Donatello's Judith?

Kali. You would make an excellent Kali, although I fear the use of such an icon would cause people to misunderstand you in the same way they misunderstand Kali (or any really strong female, actually). Perhaps you'd be better going with Donatello's Judith. Am I right in thinking that perhaps she's much closer to your own image of yourself?

 

[Angela]

Kali. You would make an excellent Kali, although I fear the use of such an icon would cause people to misunderstand you in the same way they misunderstand Kali (or any really strong female, actually). Perhaps you'd be better going with Donatello's Judith. Am I right in thinking that perhaps she's much closer to your own image of yourself?

Goodness, how very much of myself I must reveal.

Judith has always been a heroine of mine, although not the only one by far. My father was a man ahead of his time; he filled my head with the stories of all those larger than life, virtuous, yet strong women he admired, the mother of the Gracchi among them, Judith, as a symbol of liberty and the fight against tyranny of all kinds, even Anita Garibaldi, and the other women of the Risorgimento, and up to and including even women like Oriana Fallaci, even when he disagreed with some of her politics.

Just as a piece of art, Donatello's sculpture is breathtaking. You have to walk all the way around it to get the full effect: the intertwined bodies, her modesty and yet her calm and resolve in comparison to his nakedness and drunkenness, the tension Donatello captured as she prepares for the second blow.

There's even the added benefit that she looks like me, which isn't surprising of course. Yes, you've convinced me; it will be Judith.

 

[Auld Reekie]

My teacher is from the Amalfi Coast and is a very educated man who believes Italy will succeed until everybody speaks standard Italian. I should have mentioned I stopped being tutored by him a while back for financial reasons so it would be interesting to have seen his reaction. :0

 

[Sile]

My teacher is from the Amalfi Coast and is a very educated man who believes Italy will succeed until everybody speaks standard Italian. I should have mentioned I stopped being tutored by him a while back for financial reasons so it would be interesting to have seen his reaction. :0

He/She can dream, besides he/she is Neapolitan, of course the person will say that, they monopolize RAI tv with their Neapolitan-Italian dialect.

I sit there not knowing what they say, I look around to my parents, when I visit and they watch RAI tv, and they are equally confused by what is said. I visit my aunties Tuscan relatives ( from Lucca) and they also do not understand fully the "dialect" from RAI tv
This is the media that Italy present to its people.....its not even in standard Italian

 

[Maleth]

Well that is exactly incorrect; No Italian dialect is a dialect of the Italian language for standard Italian is an altered (19th century) Tuscan dialect itself i.e. for example the Rhaeto-Romanic dialects are most def. not dialects from standard Italian; and so on

This is interesting but we know that the Knights of Malta already had Italian as their universal language even though the French languages (French. Provance, Anjou) were the most numerous. The Knights were in Malta around 1551, so some kind of universal Italian must have already been in place.

 

[Nobody1]

This is interesting but we know that the Knights of Malta already had Italian as their universal language even though the French languages (French. Provance, Anjou) were the most numerous. The Knights were in Malta around 1551, so some kind of universal Italian must have already been in place.

Very interesting;
If that is the defi. of standard Italian (Ytalico) in the Middle ages than what changed; maybe something;

^Contract between Knights Hospitaller (Rhodes) and Mamluk Sultan 1477 - many Johanniter/Hospitaller Knights were from Lombardy on Rhodes;

 

[Sile]

This is interesting but we know that the Knights of Malta already had Italian as their universal language even though the French languages (French. Provance, Anjou) were the most numerous. The Knights were in Malta around 1551, so some kind of universal Italian must have already been in place.

Its universal language of Italian was sicilian with some tuscan thrown in. Thats its Itlain. The knights spoke Latin to each other including the knights of saint stephen ( who where from tuscany).

It was being replaced by the new Maltese language around the late 16th century and Italian was removed from maltese society in 1936

Malta benefited economically from being considered part and parcel of the Kingdom of Sicily. In the words of Capitoli of Messina of 1460, the free entry was allowed to the cotton Malta then produced and exported. Export of grain to Malta was also freely permitted.

The first real separation arrived in 1530 when Malta’s Common Emperor Charles V saw fit to grant the fief of Malta to the Knights of St.John. During the long period of the Order’s stay on these Islands, the titular appurtenance to the Kingdom of Sicily was formally served. Malta still imported grain and other food from Sicily. Its jurisconsults and also most of its medical doctors studied in Sicily. Culturally, with Italian as our official language and as the lingua franca within the Order, Malta was very much a part of Italy.
The first Maltese Government tried to find a compromise solution to the language question through granting pari passu status to the Italian and English languages. The Law specified the language of instruction in all schools, for all levels, and for all subjects. Maltese was to be the language of the initial introduction to elementary schooling, whilst the other two languages were assigned the task of being the vehicle in later stages. During the Compact Government’s period in Office (1927-1930) pari passu was ridiculed, steps were taken to undermine it, and Italian was removed completely from Primary education. The Constitution was suspended in 1933 and in 1935, the Italian Language was removed from its status as one of the official languages of Malta.

 

[Maleth]

It was being replaced by the new Maltese language around the late 16th century and Italian was removed from maltese society in 1936

The late 16th century was still high rule of the order of St John and the Maltese nobility (and alta societa) still had 'Italian' as their main language plus the governing language of the courts and so on. It is also a fact that the people from the country have never given up on their Siculo Arabic (Maltese) communication system, which defiantly would have outweighed the nobility and the wealthy in numbers.

1936 is a totally different story as this was during British rule and for political and strategic reasons it was in the British interest to separate Malta from Italy as much as possible. Not promoting the Italian language was one of the moves and a crack down on Italian sympathizers. That is why Italian was removed and English promoted in all areas right up till independence. The winner in the war of the languages was Maltese, as the British with an effort to eradicate Italian have also promoted Maltese. The last war and Musolini support of the Nazis to bomb Malta into oblivion of course has settled the war of languages once and for all and English has then replaced Italian as the language of high society, and now one can hear a weird Anglo Maltese dialect adopted by some Maltese which is neither Maltese nor English but a concoction of both. Today however its estimated that 66% of Maltese can converse in Italian. (ironically enough much more than the time when the Knights were present)

Malta benefited economically from being considered part and parcel of the Kingdom of Sicily. In the words of Capitoli of Messina of 1460, the free entry was allowed to the cotton Malta then produced and exported. Export of grain to Malta was also freely permitted.

Malta has always been part of Sicily and shared the same history for thousands of years. The mutation occurred when it was handed over to the knights of St. John. This is when Malta started evolving differently even though links with Italy/Sicily remained strong. Of course the British have even taken this mutation much further, and Malta was on its course to be transformed into a tiny Island state it is today as a result of the events in the last 500 years.

The first real separation arrived in 1530 when Malta’s Common Emperor Charles V saw fit to grant the fief of Malta to the Knights of St.John. During the long period of the Order’s stay on these Islands, the titular appurtenance to the Kingdom of Sicily was formally served. Malta still imported grain and other food from Sicily. Its jurisconsults and also most of its medical doctors studied in Sicily. Culturally, with Italian as our official language and as the lingua franca within the Order, Malta was very much a part of Italy.
The first Maltese Government tried to find a compromise solution to the language question through granting pari passu status to the Italian and English languages. The Law specified the language of instruction in all schools, for all levels, and for all subjects. Maltese was to be the language of the initial introduction to elementary schooling, whilst the other two languages were assigned the task of being the vehicle in later stages. During the Compact Government’s period in Office (1927-1930) pari passu was ridiculed, steps were taken to undermine it, and Italian was removed completely from Primary education. The Constitution was suspended in 1933 and in 1935, the Italian Language was removed from its status as one of the official languages of Malta.

As I explained before there were different interests different political tensions between the rule of the knights and the British visa vi language.

 

[Maleth]

Very interesting;
If that is the defi. of standard Italian (Ytalico) in the Middle ages than what changed; maybe something;

^Contract between Knights Hospitaller (Rhodes) and Mamluk Sultan 1477 - many Johanniter/Hospitaller Knights were from Lombardy on Rhodes;

Enjoyed that thank you for posting. Rhodes was taken by the Ottomans and the order had to find a new home. They consisted at the end of what is called 8 Languages. The most prominent Auberge (as they called their living quarters) is that of Castile (Part of today Spain). The German and British where considered as one language. But France was represented by three languages, the biggest being Provance. Probably it was the biggest pan European project ever undertaken before the creation of the council of Europe and the EEC.

 

[Sile]

The late 16th century was still high rule of the order of St John and the Maltese nobility (and alta societa) still had 'Italian' as their main language plus the governing language of the courts and so on. It is also a fact that the people from the country have never given up on their Siculo Arabic (Maltese) communication system, which defiantly would have outweighed the nobility and the wealthy in numbers.

1936 is a totally different story as this was during British rule and for political and strategic reasons it was in the British interest to separate Malta from Italy as much as possible. Not promoting the Italian language was one of the moves and a crack down on Italian sympathizers. That is why Italian was removed and English promoted in all areas right up till independence. The winner in the war of the languages was Maltese, as the British with an effort to eradicate Italian have also promoted Maltese. The last war and Musolini support of the Nazis to bomb Malta into oblivion of course has settled the war of languages once and for all and English has then replaced Italian as the language of high society, and now one can hear a weird Anglo Maltese dialect adopted by some Maltese which is neither Maltese nor English but a concoction of both. Today however its estimated that 66% of Maltese can converse in Italian. (ironically enough much more than the time when the Knights were present)

Malta has always been part of Sicily and shared the same history for thousands of years. The mutation occurred when it was handed over to the knights of St. John. This is when Malta started evolving differently even though links with Italy/Sicily remained strong. Of course the British have even taken this mutation much further, and Malta was on its course to be transformed into a tiny Island state it is today as a result of the events in the last 500 years.


As I explained before there were different interests different political tensions between the rule of the knights and the British visa vi language.

Call it italian if you like, but the 1861 italian census states out of 22 million italians only 600000 knew or spoke italian ( ~3% )............so the maltese must have been the majority, then again, it's like what linguistics say, maltese -italian is sicilian with some tuscan thrown in