italian genetics

zanipolo

zanipolo

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Y-DNA haplogroup
T1a2 - Z19945
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K1a4o
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Wow! Good find zanipolo. I'm surprised at how high G2a frequencies are. U152 seems to peak in tuscany where my mother hails from...in area I (north-west Italy) u152 is high but this is also where Iberian P312 and L-2 R1b peaks in all Italy. I1 peaks in veneto-Emilia Romagna regions.
 
Hg T is so sketchy all over Italy , weird to think I am the minority...It's so funny, my nonno is a real "paesano" , but he was very hurt when I told him he only represents a minority of Italians he thinks he is Arab now ahahaha
 
adamo said:
Hg T is so sketchy all over Italy , weird to think I am the minority...It's so funny, my nonno is a real "paesano" , but he was very hurt when I told him he only represents a minority of Italians he thinks he is Arab now ahahaha
Click to expand...

?

they have noted your T ...its called T2 , now called T1a1
- T on its own is all the other T , that is T-M184 and T-L131

olden times ( 2 years ago) it was
T = main branch
T1 = ended up being a private line
T2 = T1a1a
T3 = T1a2a
There is now a T1a3 as well.

the 2 links I attached are; one has P-77 which is your line and the other link has T2 which is your line

your line is not found above the centre of Italy. If you read the second links and all the comments he stated its Paleo.
Also L is neighbour to T ...if L reached Italy in neolithic surely T came with it
 
Oh my god really??? I am P-77? I ad a feeling thanks zanipolo, that's awesome!
 
Thats a good and detailed study;
great that it reveals the Area and Towns of the samples gathered

R1b-U152 is very detailed and revealing:

Area I - Piedmont/Lombardy/Liguria = 32.2% [samples 161]
Area III - Bologna = 31% [samples 29] - very small sample size, 31% from 29 samples = 9 samples / so still significant
Area IV - Tuscany = 37.4% [samples 123]

To me this further indicates the Bronze Age (Indo-European) Umbrian lineage;
amongst the Etruscans (Umbro-Pelasgian) and the Umbro-Ligures (Umbrian Insubres) of the Po Valley.

Area V - Central Italy = 19.5% - [Umbrian Sabines]
Area VI - South Italy = 8.6% - [Umbrian Samnites]

All the other figures are equal/identical with other studies, nothing new nothing special:
Sardinia = 39% I2a1 (M26),
G2a, J2a and E-V13 being significant (although varying) all across

wouldnt have expected Sicily to be 2.8% R1b-L21; more like 0%

The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf
 
Nobody1 said:
The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf
Click to expand...

this study from 2008
[h=1]Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe[/h]
had 10.4 R1a1 in northeast italy, but the bulk (9.1) was in udine ( friuli) and trieste area which IIRC are east of aviano
 
Here is the full study:

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

and its even more detailed than i thought;

Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

For instance, the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.

Great to see Genetics catching up with Archaeology and Anthropology;
The Metal Ages of the 3rd and 2nd Mil. BC show the first wave of Indo-Europeans emerging in the Chalcolithic (Remedello II) and a full scale second wave emerging in the Bronze Age (Terremare)

The proto-historic Italics (Indo-Europeans) being the Umbrians (Terremare -Bronze Age):

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls;
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]


Archaeology, Anthropology and the Indo-European Umbrians .........
dilusional.png

........... I told you so
 
zanipolo said:
this study from 2008
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe


had 10.4 R1a1 in northeast italy, but the bulk (9.1) was in udine ( friuli) and trieste area which IIRC are east of aviano
Click to expand...

Yes its def. East of Aviano, but there were no Y-DNA samples from Aviano used, only mtDNA;
And Verona and Val di Non being west of Friuli and still having a substantial 7.9% R1a, i expected likewise in Treviso and Vicenza;

So that its 0% flat is a surprise;

Also surprising is that Hg I1-M253 is 11% in NE Italy- with also R1b-U106 being 5.5%;
both much higher the NW Italy (3.1% each)
 
zanipolo said:
a new survey on Italian ydna and mtdna

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

oddities are

I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area

- L ydna of 8.2% in North east Italy

and for adamo....you line is only in central and south Italy


to the others ...enjoy

maybe Maciano can use these numbers to update his data

another site with different perspectives
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form
Click to expand...
Thanks! The second link also had more about the frequencies of different mtDNA haplogroups.
 
adamo said:
Wow! Good find zanipolo. I'm surprised at how high G2a frequencies are. U152 seems to peak in tuscany where my mother hails from...in area I (north-west Italy) u152 is high but this is also where Iberian P312 and L-2 R1b peaks in all Italy. I1 peaks in veneto-Emilia Romagna regions.
Click to expand...

Adamo, just a thought: P312 is not "iberian": it reveals only an intermediary form either a) without any downstream SNP - or b) with downstream SNPs we have not discovered yet... so for U152, L21/S145 and others, only an "ancestral form" or "previous stage" - the P312 of Germany by instance can having had a different story
compared to the P312 of Southern Spain or W Ireland, since Calcholithic or even before that:
there is some 'dynamics' in these SNPs
just a point of reasoning
have a good week-end
 
Nobody1 said:
Yes its def. East of Aviano, but there were no Y-DNA samples from Aviano used, only mtDNA;
And Verona and Val di Non being west of Friuli and still having a substantial 7.9% R1a, i expected likewise in Treviso and Vicenza;

So that its 0% flat is a surprise;

Also surprising is that Hg I1-M253 is 11% in NE Italy- with also R1b-U106 being 5.5%;
both much higher the NW Italy (3.1% each)
Click to expand...

R-U106 IIRC is about 15% in eastern austria............is it the lombards?

Discussing with the other guy from second link,

It's possible that a small lineage like R1a has a scattered distribution with localized founder effects. If so, random effects of sampling choices could affect results, what is less likely to happen to more common lineages.
.........I asked on L Y-dna.........
Just thought that L and T must have migrated together. My initial impression is that it's some sort of localized founder effect with most probable Neolithic origins. L is widely distributed at low frequencies through West Asia, what seems to support the notion of Neolithic colonization: Anatolia → Balcans → Italy.

...........If they found no R1a in veneto is a surprise , but Val di non ( south tyrol ) does show some R1a.......it can be germanic R1a.

R1a is not all slavic
 
Nobody1 said:
Thats a good and detailed study;
great that it reveals the Area and Towns of the samples gathered

R1b-U152 is very detailed and revealing:

Area I - Piedmont/Lombardy/Liguria = 32.2% [samples 161]
Area III - Bologna = 31% [samples 29] - very small sample size, 31% from 29 samples = 9 samples / so still significant
Area IV - Tuscany = 37.4% [samples 123]

To me this further indicates the Bronze Age (Indo-European) Umbrian lineage;
amongst the Etruscans (Umbro-Pelasgian) and the Umbro-Ligures (Umbrian Insubres) of the Po Valley.

Area V - Central Italy = 19.5% - [Umbrian Sabines]
Area VI - South Italy = 8.6% - [Umbrian Samnites]

All the other figures are equal/identical with other studies, nothing new nothing special:
Sardinia = 39% I2a1 (M26),
G2a, J2a and E-V13 being significant (although varying) all across

wouldnt have expected Sicily to be 2.8% R1b-L21; more like 0%

The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf
Click to expand...

your post is interesting, but I remain confused when I read you evocating names like Umbro-Pelasgians (Etruscans) or Umbro-Ligures (Insubres): where did you find these correlations? or it is to name the current mix in populations of today? "pelasgian" is confusing: I think it reflects anatolian I-Eans as well as speakers of non-I-E caucasic or anatolian languages (pre I-E)...
R1b-L21 in Sicily is surprising: it could be a Normans (of France and Britain) heritage: L21 from W-Norway or from celtic lands (pre-Franks Gaul, celtic Britain) people incorporated into Normans society??? only very detailed SNPs could answer that -
I agree with you that R1a would be heavier in N-E Italy (but this region is so spotty, and global surveys mistake us, I think, so some "neighbours" can be rich of it when others are very poor!
 
I'll read more about L21 in Italy - it could be older than Normans and being part of ligurian colonists or akin tribes got down to Southern Italy at Bronze Age times??? So I need to know the L21 weight among NW Italians. L21 is not absent of some regions of E-France, even Alps; it is a predecessor, I think, of U152 there, and some P310s confues us because some are "U152 fathers" an some are "L21" fathers, without speaking about other downstream SNPs of R1b -
 
I recall here the opinion of old scholars that said Terramare would be latine of akin italic tribes (mix with Ligurians and pre-I-E of Switzerland and NW Italy) RATHER than Umbrians... the first named were older than these last ones in N-Italy (at least 500 years?)
 
No R1a in NE Italy really?

Germanic lineages are strongest in NE, curiously I2b1 peaks in Sardinians.

G2a very high.
 
Useless study.. Mtdna and yd a are only an insignificant fraction of a single human being. They should have done the research on many autosomes and create an italian genetic map/clusters.
 
MOESAN said:
I recall here the opinion of old scholars that said Terramare would be latine of akin italic tribes (mix with Ligurians and pre-I-E of Switzerland and NW Italy) RATHER than Umbrians... the first named were older than these last ones in N-Italy (at least 500 years?)
Click to expand...

The Latin-Italic link is only due to the spurious claim that the Terremare settlements show resemblance to a Roman military camp. - Not sufficient!

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

This Archaological and Linguistical manifestation is further bolstered by the
Historical quotes on post # 8;

also the mutual high levels of R1b-U152 in Switzerland and the Upper Rhine Area further indicates this Migration; from the proto-Keltic Indo-European Swiss Lake dwellings.

Other / more detailed info on the Umbrians - History & Civilisations > Thread: Who where the Sabines? > p.1

The Frequency distributution of R1b-U152 across Italy - North (32%) - Central (19%) - South (8.6%) can only be attributed to the Umbrians [Insubres-Sabines-Samnites]; wouldnt know any other people with that range and settlements.

As for the link between Umbrians and the Ligurians and Pelasgians > History & Civilisations Thread: Who where the Sabines? - p.1

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

MOESAN said:
R1b-L21 in Sicily is surprising: it could be a Normans (of France and Britain) heritage: L21 from W-Norway or from celtic lands (pre-Franks Gaul, celtic Britain) people incorporated into Normans society??? only very detailed SNPs could answer that -
Click to expand...

Either that,
or some Irish-American soldiers had a Bangging time during the Invasion of 1943!
 
zanipolo said:
R-U106 IIRC is about 15% in eastern austria............is it the lombards?
Click to expand...

would be my best guess,
along with Hg I1-M253 being 11% in NE Italy ...... pos. Langobarden lineage.

zanipolo said:
It's possible that a small lineage like R1a has a scattered distribution with localized founder effects. If so, random effects of sampling choices could affect results, what is less likely to happen to more common lineages.
Click to expand...

That is truly the only plausible explanation;


zanipolo said:
...........If they found no R1a in veneto is a surprise , but Val di non ( south tyrol ) does show some R1a.......it can be germanic R1a. R1a is not all slavic
Click to expand...

That is for sure, they found R1a (not specified sub-clade) in Eulau, Germany (west of the Elbe) from Skeletal remains of the first Indo-European wave [Corded Ware Culture]; Strontium Isotope Analyses indicated the Males (R1a) were local to the area (west of the Elbe)

Eulau -
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long
 
julia90 said:
Useless study.. Mtdna and yd a are only an insignificant fraction of a single human being. They should have done the research on many autosomes and create an italian genetic map/clusters.
Click to expand...

I don't agree completely: it would be very astonishing if autosomals genes should not have something to do with the population "mix" of mt DNA with the Y DNA (these genes don't mix, but the population where we find them is a mix of parenst whom ancestry can be determined for a big part by these male and female ligneages): surely some discrepancies can occur, but the mix of maternal and paternal uniparental genes says something to us, not evidently so far from what could say an autosomals survey -
an surely in future the autosomals pooling could get more accurate...

 
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