Italian vs Italian American Sociocultural Comparison

Vitruvius

Vitruvius

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In the previous thread about mapping WHG ancestry the topic got a bit derailed by topics concerning IQ and income of Southern Italians and Italian Americans. We established that Southern Italians seem to show an average IQ of 103 (D'Amico et. al 2012) which is comparable to the rest of Italy and most European populations. This contrasts sharply with the much less reputable PISA score IQ estimate of 92 given by Richard Lynn which was based on academic achievement. We also determined that the median household income of Americans who Identify as exclusively of Italian ethnic background is 90,000 USD, which places them significantly higher than the broad American median of 73,000 and the broad American white median of 77,000. The conversation has significantly diverged from the original thread topic so I figured it would be appropriate to make a separate thread. I'll leave us with @Jovialis 's last post to continue it.

Jovialis said:
I'm quite pleased to learn about that 2012 study refuting Lynn's work. I knew it was shotty, but tried to reconcile why it may be the case. At any rate, I was tested to have an IQ of 143 when I was 7 years old.

Furthermore, here in the north east of the US, Italians are typically living in nice neighborhoods, and towns, and have white-collar occupations. So an average IQ of 103 makes far more sense, than 92! Far more fitting for the descendants of Magna Graecia, which was home to people like Archimedes, Pythagoras, Parmenides, etc.

The United States and the economic system is closer to the state of nature, and allows more freedom to succeed (and to fail).

The USA has a much wider range of opportunity, and emphasizes entrepreneurialism.

Italy has stronger protection for workers, and thus more job security. But the US labor market is far more flexible, allowing for a less ridged system.

Furthermore, while Italy has a high-quality education system, it is not as closely linked to the job market, as it is in the USA.

Moreover, Italy has a much more robust social welfare system, while beneficial for people who really need it, it doesn't incentivize people to "pull themselves up from their own boot-straps".

Thus the stagnation of the South and the success of Southerners in the USA, demonstrates it is not a matter of IQ, but economic system and opportunities.
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@Vitruvius
one needs to realise that from 1870 to after WW1 ............USA was exclusive to southern Italian migration only ( non exclusive areas where Australia and Iberia ) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,while northern Italians had Canada, Australia, Brazil, Argentina and southern France with no exclusive areas

Belgium had different trade rules.......people for coal
 
Vitruvius said:
In the previous thread about mapping WHG ancestry the topic got a bit derailed by topics concerning IQ and income of Southern Italians and Italian Americans. We established that Southern Italians seem to show an average IQ of 103 (D'Amico et. al 2012) which is comparable to the rest of Italy and most European populations. This contrasts sharply with the much less reputable PISA score IQ estimate of 92 given by Richard Lynn which was based on academic achievement. We also determined that the median household income of Americans who Identify as exclusively of Italian ethnic background is 90,000 USD, which places them significantly higher than the broad American median of 73,000 and the broad American white median of 77,000. The conversation has significantly diverged from the original thread topic so I figured it would be appropriate to make a separate thread. I'll leave us with @Jovialis 's last post to continue it.
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If one wishes to compare the Italian and US economy I think we should also take a look at the drastically different natural resource availability circumstances each country finds itself in. It's important to understand that the US economy has much larger natural resource wealth - particularly in terms of natural deposits of iron, coal and oil - all of which industrial economies draw heavily from. Italy by contrast is relatively poor in these materials and was forced to industrialize through hydroelectricity rather than coal like other major countries in the 19th century. To this day Italy imports a large amount of its resources but it conversely boasts a very powerful manufacturing economy. Italy's manufacturing output in terms of dollars is the second largest in Europe, being only surpassed by Germany which shows a large success in achieving a high level of industrialization despite its natural resource shortcomings.


On this topic of industrialization potential, this is probably the main driving factor as to why the North retains such a stronger economic output than the south per capita. It has been noted that the majority of the value of historically recovered monetary reserves in 19th century Italy seem to be of Southern Italian mint which implicates that the Kingdom of Two Sicilies may have had a larger economy than the combined value of the Northern city states prior to unification. This remains a somewhat speculative field but evidence denotes a sort large peasant driven economy in the south which was sharply divided between wealthy land owners and tenants that worked the land. There were of course aspects of southern economic industrialization as well such as ship building and large scale forging, but industrialization on the whole seemed to be less of a priority compared to the more mercantilist model of prioritizing trade control and centralized land ownership. For this reason I think it's likely that while Southern Italy could've been the wealthier half of the peninsula prior to unification, it also lacked a middle class which the north had been developing since the renaissance through the guild system. When you combine this with the introduction of hydroelectric power which necessarily is benefited by the faster flowing rivers of the alps, it's not much of a surprise that the investment capital which laid the foundation for factories and their supply chains necessarily favored Po Valley. The more robust and larger guild systems of the north provided a pool of skilled labor in a setting which provided cheaper power, thus initiating a flight of capital to the north.

The end result here was that southern Italy remained the least affect by the wealth surplus generated from Italian industrialization and since it still lacked a robust middle class, many opted to simply emigrate to places like the US in search of better paying work, even in the form of manual labor. Today it's estimated that 80% of Italian immigrants to the US are of southern Italian origin for this reason. Their current descendants now outperform the broad US and white median earnings which shows remarkable intragenerational achievement. It seems to me as if the Southern Italian immigrants of the old world sought to escape a lack of class mobility above all else and they effectively achieved this very rapidly once employment which allowed for middle class mobility was offered. On the flip side it appears that those who stayed in Southern Italy largely remained subject to neglected economic investment and to this day earn less than the North. I think comparisons like these are important to keep in mind to remember that context and opportunity can be a very key driver in performance based population assessment.
 
torzio said:
@Vitruvius
one needs to realise that from 1870 to after WW1 ............USA was exclusive to southern Italian migration only ( non exclusive areas where Australia and Iberia ) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,while northern Italians had Canada, Australia, Brazil, Argentina and southern France with no exclusive areas

Belgium had different trade rules.......people for coal
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I definitely would not say the US was exclusive to southern Italian immigration. It's more so that Southern Italian immigrants simply made up the bulk representation of Italian migrants due to their poorer regional economic outlook comparatively. There were no barriers to northern Italian immigration imposed. Do you think there were different driving factors for Italians of various regions to migrate to Australia, Canada, Brazil, Argentina or France in comparison to the US?
 
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Vitruvius said:
I definitely would not say the US was exclusive to southern Italian immigration. It's more so that Southern Italian immigrants simply made up the bulk representation of Italian migrants due to their poorer regional economic outlook comparatively. There were no barriers to northern Italian immigration imposed. Do you think there were different driving factors for Italians of various regions to migrate to Australia, Canada, Brazil, Argentina or France in comparison to the US?
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my father was denied to go to USA.......he had only choice of Australia, Canada or Toulousse france
 
so I have zero USA relatives.........have Canada , southern France and Belgium
 
torzio said:
my father was denied to go to USA.......he had only choice of Australia, Canada or Toulousse france
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Was he denied due to an immigrant quota or for some sort of reason personal to his background?
 
no idea
maybe it was due to his brother being a POW under american in 1943 Tunisia......sent to missisippi pow camp and refused to remain in usa after 1946
 
torzio said:
my father was denied to go to USA.......he had only choice of Australia, Canada or Toulousse france
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I have relatives from NW Tuscany in California who married Ligurians there as well as family in Argentina and Australia.

The USA brought in strict control on immigration from south and east Europe in 1924.

In Britain most Italians come from the rural areas in the provinces of Frosinone, Isernia and Lucca (originally plaster statuette makers but now mostly in the professions) with a few from Borgotaro in Parma province (especially in Wales) and a few Friulani who used to specialise in terrazzo work.
 
Vallicanus said:
I have relatives from NW Tuscany in California who married Ligurians there as well as family in Argentina and Australia.

The USA brought in strict control on immigration from south and east Europe in 1924.

In Britain most Italians come from the rural areas in the provinces of Frosinone, Isernia and Lucca (originally plaster statuette makers but now mostly in the professions) with a few from Borgotaro in Parma province (especially in Wales) and a few Friulani who used to specialise in terrazzo work.
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My family came to the US in the 1970s.

There's people who have been here for hundreds of years, yet we managed to become much wealthier than the vast majority of the population.

I attribute that to culture/opportunity (nurture) and genetics/IQ (nature)
 
torzio said:
my father was denied to go to USA.......he had only choice of Australia, Canada or Toulousse france
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My great grand father was actually deported in the early 20th century. Because there was a big brawl between Italians, and probably Irish or some other ethnic group.

Nevertheless, his name is on the Statue of Liberty.

But he was a "bird of passage", his son would later move to the US decades later in the 1970s. My dad was 14 when he came to the USA, my mother was a young immigrant as well.

By then they relaxed a lot of the laws for immigration.
 
Jovialis said:
My great grand father was actually deported in the early 20th century. Because there was a big brawl between Italians, and probably Irish or some other ethnic group.

Nevertheless, his name is on the Statue of Liberty.

But he was a "bird of passage", his son would later move to the US decades later in the 1970s. My dad was 14 when he came to the USA, my mother was a young immigrant as well.

By then they relaxed a lot of the laws for immigration.
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That's a wild story. Thanks for sharing this. I'm guessing your dad left Italy to live with other types of family in the US and find work opportunities? It seems like everything worked out for both of you in the end and that's great to hear. Being deported to Italy probably wasn't exactly what your great grandfather was hoping for, but at the same time it sounds far from the worst punishment in the world 😁
 
Jovialis said:
I attribute that to culture/opportunity (nurture) and genetics/IQ (nature)
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Yes, and I think this is really where I see the core of performance as well in any individual. It's found somewhere between the interplay of your base programming (genetics), motivational drive (psychology), and available opportunity (environment). Take away a solid foundation in any one of these areas and I begin to see people struggle.
 
Vallicanus said:
I have relatives from NW Tuscany in California who married Ligurians there as well as family in Argentina and Australia.

The USA brought in strict control on immigration from south and east Europe in 1924.

In Britain most Italians come from the rural areas in the provinces of Frosinone, Isernia and Lucca (originally plaster statuette makers but now mostly in the professions) with a few from Borgotaro in Parma province (especially in Wales) and a few Friulani who used to specialise in terrazzo work.
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I Imagine many immigrant communities of any country at their foundation started as multifamily social networks that sort of "facilitated" integration. This would explain why you often times get communities which are very provincially specific like you mentioned. Once a community was established the good word and success stories could simply be sent back to friends and relatives and they can then follow the trodden path upon arrival.
 
My grandfather arrived in Uruguay in 1927. One of his brothers (there were 11) emigrated to the United States a little earlier. Unlike most emigrants, they did not have economic problems (supposedly the father encouraged them to leave due to the proximity of another war, but it is also said that they tried to escape the father's control). They exchanged letters for a few years, but then contact was lost. We only know that the brother integrated without problems, he settled in Chicago, that he married a woman of Ukrainian origin and that they had several children, one of them became a commissioner in Chicago. We never had contact with them.
 
It is not a surprise, but the imbecile RomanianDNA is the same idiot Romanian troll that has plagued us in the past.

I have deleted all of his posts.

It is quite bizarre that he wants to troll south Italians for what Richard Lynn claims to be a 92 IQ, when Romanians are shown to have an IQ of 91 according to the same study.

Who even knows if this moron is actually Romanian anyway.

I'm sure he will just make another sock account because that's what abject loser retards do in their free time.

@Maciamo
 
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