Italic peoples

[Salento]

So that there are no misunderstandings: I’m not talking about threads (as a matter of fact this is about Italics) I’m talking about this subforum quite randomly (if you ask me unless you are an ancient Greek from Salento) called “Italy & Greece”.

I’m not an Ancient Greek, I’m probably more Italian than you are.

... and even if I was an Ancient Greek it would be ok by me.

 

[Winston]

Yes, I've noticed that in your head Italy means "territories formerly known as Magna Graecia".

If that is the case you are more "Italian" than me, indeed.

You are not alone though, it seems to be a common misconception around athrofora.

 

[Salento]

Yes, I've noticed that in your head Italy means "territories formerly known as Magna Graecia".

If that is the case you are more "Italian" than me, indeed.

You are not alone though, it seems to be a common misconception around athrofora.

You have no idea what I'm thinking, and I have no idea what you're talking about!

... moving on !

 

[Salento]

EDIT...

after 2300+ years, the Latins R850 and R437 still share the same positions in my 8th and 20th chromosome, ... (they also share the same 8th chr. position with 3.300 BC Otzi):

 

[Salento]

​3.300 BC

... The Iceman, Otzi, is a descendant from the first farmers to have arrived in the Italian Peninsula, which may have harbored remnant hunter-gatherer populations during the Pleistocene who resettled Northern Europe with the glacier retreats ... (NatGeo) ... MTA:

 

[Jovialis]

Do you really mean that Umbria and Abruzzo have more in common with Greece than UK has in common with Ireland, Spain with Portugal and Benelux countries have with one another? Sorry but I strongly disagree.

By the way, also in absolute terms I don't see a special connection of Italy to Greece (except maybe in those parts which were Greek colonies 2500 years ago), not in food, not in architecture, not in religion, pretty much in nothing really.

Nothing but respect for Greece and the Greeks but that's reality of everyday life (and being from norther Italy, geography).

Bottom line the "Italy & Greece" subforum strikes me as odd, but no problem with it I really don't care if that's how the site was designed.

A sharp north-south division in cluster distribution was detected, the separation between northern and southern areas being shifted north along the peninsula (Fig. 1B) (12). The reported structure dismissed the possibility that the Central Italian populations differentiated from the Northern and Southern Italian groups (Fig. 1A) (13). Individuals from Central Italy were, in fact, assigned mostly to the Southern Italian clusters, except for samples from Tuscany, which grouped instead with the Northern Italian clusters (Fig. 1, A and B) (12). Contrary to previous results, no outliers were detected among the Northern Italian clusters (12).

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full

Umbria and Abruzzo are genetically assigned as "Southern Italian" clusters. Which have similarity to Greeks. Peloponnesians are "east" of Italians in central Italy,

 

[Jovialis]

Furthermore, there were a lot of Italics in the South, I seriously doubt we are predominately descended from Magna Grecia as a whole:

There are also the Iapygian (Illyrian) tribes to consider, who I speculate were similar to Mycenaeans.

As far as I know, R1 from Antonio et al 2019 is the only Italic that I've seen. She is similar to North Italians, which come out to be on the cline between European (65%) and Central Mediterranean population sources (35%).

I'm looking forward to see what these other Italic tribes are made of, like the Samnites, Lucanians, and Bruttians. I would suspect there is a cline, with Central Mediterranean increasing as you go south.

 

[Winston]

Umbria and Abruzzo are genetically assigned as "Southern Italian" clusters. Which have similarity to Greeks. Peloponnesians are "east" of Italians in central Italy,

Thank you for the material. Even assuming this is correct (as an Italian knowing the inter-regional dynamics within Italy and people's movements IRL, I really struggle to see how someone from Umbria, but even an Abruzzese, may be genetically closer to a Greek than a Tuscan), that was really not my point: what I mean is, just because a part of Italy may bear genetic resemblance to Greece (or part of it) I don't see much sense in grouping these otherwise quite different countries in one subforum (just as one example of many, parts of France are genetically very similar to parts of Germany still I bet they would never be grouped together in a "France & Germany" subforum as it would make very little sense considering the marked cultural differences).

 

[D.L.M]

Furthermore, there were a lot of Italics in the South, I seriously doubt we are predominately descended from Magna Grecia as a whole.

I especially don't believe it for Apulia.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Thank you for the material. Even assuming this is correct (as an Italian knowing the inter-regional dynamics within Italy and people's movements IRL, I really struggle to see how someone from Umbria, but even an Abruzzese, may be genetically closer to a Greek than a Tuscan), that was really not my point: what I mean is, just because a part of Italy may bear genetic resemblance to Greece (or part of it) I don't see much sense in grouping these otherwise quite different countries in one subforum (just as one example of many, parts of France are genetically very similar to parts of Germany still I bet they would never be grouped together in a "France & Germany" subforum as it would make very little sense considering the marked cultural differences).

In Italy there is a main cline that goes from north to south on a west-east axis, with the exception of some areas of north-eastern Italy that go to the northeast. The Abruzzese (genetically, culturally and linguistically are southern Italians) are more southeast of the Tuscans. The Umbrians are central Italians but they also seem on the whole to be a bit more southeast of the Tuscans, although on the whole they remain further north than the Abruzzese.

Obviously this is the genetic discourse, from a cultural point of view I understand that grouping all Italy with Greece does not reflect reality. The Italian Alps really have almost nothing in common culturally with Greece and have much more in common with neighbouring countries. As well as other areas of Italy have something more in common culturally with the south of France than with Greece. But even in southern France there is something Mediterranean like in Greece, unlike the rest of France which is clearly more a country similar to central Europe, or even in northern France, to the countries of northern Europe.

 

[Jovialis]

According to Haak et al, Tuscans have about 30% PIE admixture.

It is amazing how advanced these spam bots are getting. This is extraordinary.

This user has other posts that are clearly spam, but this one makes it look like a legitimate user.

 

[Regio X]

It is amazing how advanced these spam bots are getting. This is extraordinary.

This user has other posts that are clearly spam, but this one makes it look like a legitimate user.

Indeed. The bot copied a phrase already used in this thread (page 1).