J2 in Italy

There is also Tuscany sample from the same study, but by his STRs its hard to predict the haplogroup. Major qustion is, does he belong to J2b-M205* or J2a-M410*

I double-checked with one administrator and he is much more leaning towards the J2-M205 side.

This are his STR results in FTDNA order:

ID NA20763 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] J2-M205*
12 24 15 11 13-16 0 0 11 12 11 28 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 19 0 0-0-0-0 0 11 0-0 13 0 16 18 0-0 0 9
 
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as E-v13>PH1204* (also Montenegrin native).

Vasojevici are most likely not native in Montenegro. It seems their tradition about Herzegovina is true because Herzegovina Vlach Bobani tribe, mentioned in 14th century turned out to be related to them (though no SNP confirmation yet). In addition in Croatia and even Slovenia in studies occurs a haplotype which is little more distant to Vasojevici (7/67 including some slow STR's) and has unique value of dys458=13. This haplotype does not occur anywhere East of Drina river/Montenegro so that does point for them being native in modern day Croatia. There is one Greek PH1246 which maybe has a more distant relation to them, hard to say often on 37 STR's if they are of the same clade for PH1246. If he is not (and that is probably likely) they are certainly some Western Illyrian tribe. That's why their cluster is not found in Albanians, similarly how J-PH1602 is not found in Albanians either.
 
Vasojevici are most likely not native in Montenegro. It seems their tradition about Herzegovina is true because Herzegovina Vlach Bobani tribe, mentioned in 14th century turned out to be related to them (though no SNP confirmation yet). In addition in Croatia and even Slovenia in studies occurs a haplotype which is little more distant to Vasojevici (7/67 including some slow STR's) and has unique value of dys458=13. This haplotype does not occur anywhere East of Drina river/Montenegro so that does point for them being native in modern day Croatia. There is one Greek PH1246 which maybe has a more distant relation to them, hard to say often on 37 STR's if they are of the same clade for PH1246. If he is not (and that is probably likely) they are certainly some Western Illyrian tribe. That's why their cluster is not found in Albanians, similarly how J-PH1602 is not found in Albanians either.


This specific part about oral tradition of Montenegrin and North Albanian 15 century clans having origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina has been debunked thru genetic researches.
As majority of 15 century Malisor tribes belongs to haplogroups E-v13, J2b2, and R1b. While Bosnia and specifically Hercegovina part is dominated with haplogroup I2a1-CTS10228 up to 70 %.

E-v13 in Bosnia is mostly represented in Serbs, in Republika Srpska, in Croatia also at Serbs at Knin and more south to Dalmatian coasts, even tho there is of course Croatian and Bosnian clades also.
One fair part of these seems to be Montenegrin emigrants strait into "Krajina region" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier#Background


I am aware of Croats and Slovens found within E-v13>PH1204* branch. It is not relevant as their distant (lets say 500 - 1000 years back) origin is not known.
They are brother clades to Montenegrin PH1204* and they are scattered so no real indication of history is known.

Regarding one Vlach found in Bosnia who is PH1204, that changes nothing about their origin being native Montenegrins. Brotherhood with centuries of history outweighs one Vlach sample.

What is known for sure is that Vasojevici have history of being Montenegrin tribe, and they just as many other Malisor tribes had oral stories of same forfather and origin of Hercegovina.

Both stories of same for forfather and origin from Hercegovina have been debunked. But possibility is higher that they are native Montenegrins as there is high percentage of E-v13, just as we find it at even higher percentages more south towards Albanians and not northwest towards Bosnia.

Reason why Albanians still dont have clear confirmation of E-v13>PH1204* or clades like you mentioned J2b>L283>PH1602 is because as it seems general population, and especially Albanians went thru vast bottleneck effect.
And then rapidly after fifth century in Common Era started to expand. I am guessing that there have been lost great deal of direct paternal lines in sense of subclades only in last 2000 years, while these that survived, perhaps had luck to expand.
Also E-v13>PH1246 was obviously lost among Albanians and Paleo-Balkan remaining populations since it was slavicized recently in Montenegro. So there is no wonder why it does not exist among Albanians today.
It was slavicized together with majority of that Montenegrin 20% E-v13.

I welcome discussion but i dont want to turn thread into E-v13 debate as clearly thread is dedicated to J2 Italians. If you wish you can open a thread of quote me or make question about E-v13 in any thread that has anything to do with Vasojevici or E-v13 and i will gladly answer.

So i will respect thread purpose and continue to comment if there is need and discussion about J2 haplogroup at Italians.
 
Those Albanian clans that have tradition of coming from more North like Hercegovina/Bosnia don't have tradition of coming from Slavic speakers in that area but they were actually Latin speakers or Albanian speakers possibly and not Slavic so only logical they don't belong to I2a1b or any of the common Slavic branches in that area since they were not Slavs, South Slavs majority belonging to I2a1b doesn't necessarily disprove such a theory. Those people that came from more North were supposedly natives that were pushed out by Slavs or later Ottomans. It's possible the high Slavic male lineages in those areas is a bottle neck effect also. So genetics technically don't disprove it.

I'm not saying that the theory is true or that they came from there , but this was also mentioned by Coon especially who studied Albanians for like 10 years. Genetics haven't really debunked it. Especially when it was said that a lot of those areas were depopulated of their native population.

You also have E1b found in ancient samples more north, R1b l23 , J2b2 , of course they were bronze age samples and neolithic so they belong to older clades. But it's possible some people carrying these haplogroups from those areas at one point migrated south?

Shala tribe had tradition of coming from Plains of Kosovo also . Northern Albania served as a refuge area , not every Malsor tribe in that area is native, many possibly came from neighboring areas. This is only logical if you take a look at the history of the Balkans like the Romans and the Antes, Sklavenis and Avars that invaded and raided the area ... Serbs and Croats only settled after these people and absorbed whatever natives or Slavs were left.

Of course we would need to test South Slavs that belong to various native ydna's to compare with Albanians to test this theory and not I2a1b or R1a. But you also had different migrations during Ottoman Empire and Habsburg into areas more North , by Serbs especially, and bottle neck effects which have affected these things.


Not finding high R1b L23, Ev13 or J2b2 in Bosnia or Croatia today means practically nothing when you consider ancient samples that were found in Croatia that belonged to such ydna's, that would be like arguing that they could not of existed in ancient times either because they dont exist there in high percentage today, it just means a bottle neck effect has occured , native male lineages were replaced with Slavic male lineages due to migrations + bottle neck / founder effect .


I personally don't think every Malsor tribe is native to Northern Albania , some were Ilyrians or Thracians that came from neighboring areas or atleast their founders were since such tribes possibly did not exist at that time, oldest mention is of Berisha tribe dating back to 13th century. This is my personal belief. I haven't seen any genetic evidence that debunks this.

I refuse to believe that all of my ancestors continously lived in what is today Northern Albania for thousands of years without moving or having come from somewhere else... not even my paternal ancestors... those mirditors matching us practically means nothing ... no indication that our J2b2 expanded from there or originated there .

We also have a minority of I2a1b , R1a and I1 Albanians in the North since you mentioned possible Slavic male lineages and also your J2b1 which is found in South Slavs and is clearly Slavicized.... who knows where these people lived in the Balkans lets say 1000 years ago or where they came from or with who...
 
If you want, please open a new thread named "Do Malisor clans originate in Bosnian Hercegovina" or similar and write there all this you written here, also you are free to quote me there if you think something i said is not correct, and we can debate it there. It is very easy to prove that they dont originate in Bosnia, and much of this that you written above does not make sense at all, but i dont want to continue this conversation in thread that is dedicated to J2 Italians. It makes no sense to argue about it here.
 
If you want, please open a new thread named "Do Malisor clans originate in Bosnian Hercegovina" or similar and write there all this you written here, also you are free to quote me there if you think something i said is not correct, and we can debate it there. It is very easy to prove that they dont originate in Bosnia, and much of this that you written above does not make sense at all, but i dont want to continue this conversation in thread that is dedicated to J2 Italians. It makes no sense to argue about it here.

I appreciate your courtesy, Dema.

In fact, any further off-topic posts will be removed.
 
I have known for a couple years now that I am G2a-CTS342, but learned yesterday that the other half of my Italian ancestry is J2a-M92. From reading this thread, M92 appears to have a fairly high incidence among J2 lineages in Southern Italy.

Can anybody here summarize what is known about the phylogeography and historical spread of J2a-M92? Did it likely arrive in Italy during Neolithic times or with Magna Graecia colonization? Or is it simply too soon to say?

I read through this recent article published in Nature, but found the comments about M92 rather cryptic = https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9
 
I have known for a couple years now that I am G2a-CTS342, but learned yesterday that the other half of my Italian ancestry is J2a-M92. From reading this thread, M92 appears to have a fairly high incidence among J2 lineages in Southern Italy.

Can anybody here summarize what is known about the phylogeography and historical spread of J2a-M92? Did it likely arrive in Italy during Neolithic times or with Magna Graecia colonization? Or is it simply too soon to say?

I read through this recent article published in Nature, but found the comments about M92 rather cryptic = https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

Dominique,

Given the recent release of some hints about ancient Italian dna indicating a presence of Iranian/CHG "type" ancestry in the Italian Neolithic, the Greek migrations etc., I'm personally taking a wait and see attitude about how the various strands of J2 might have reached Italy.

It won't be long now until we get the papers, which should be very interesting.
 
While we wait for the papers regarding italian Ancient DNA, where J2 is probably involved. I suggest to read an interesting analysis made by professor Musti, regarding Magna Graecia and italic people


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Could you please summarize Musti's arguments

My pleasure. Musti was an italian historian specialized on Magna Graecia. This book analyses the view of ancient greek, regarding the relationship between them and italics, and their colonies in southern Italy and Sicily. It’s quite interesting because Musti, summerizes , followig the geographic work of Strabo, all the Greek authors statements regarding italic people and western Greeks, from ancient times until the beginning of the roman Empire. Gathering all the information they had on that time.
As soon as we will see the new papers regarding ancient italian genetics, we will realize how much of the Greek tradition suits with the scientific information we have today.
 
Thanks for posting this, Azzuro. I did a similar research, but without going into the deep clades and rarer clades. This is how I hypothesised that J2b-L283 and J2a-L70 were of Indo-European (Italic) origin in Italy.

Impossible

J2a and j2b l283 are opposites. Areas with strong j2b l283 have little to no j2a (check out north Albania & Kosova)

J2b L283 doesn't have much to do with Italy, though it was likely taken there/maybe voluntary too by the Romans and used in their armies
 
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Impossible
J2a and j2b l283 are opposites. Areas with strong j2b l283 have little to no j2a (check out north Albania & Kosova)
J2b L283 doesn't have much to do with Italy, though it was likely taken there/maybe voluntary too by the Romans and used in their armies

The Romans definitely utilized L283s in their military, but L283 was in Italy long before the Romans. Reference the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan sample (700 BC) and the L283 Z622 (YP61 and YP91) from Nuragic civilization in Sardinia (1200 BC). They definitely had an ancient presence in Italy and likely expanded there via Bell Beakers, Etruscans, Rhaetians, and Illyrians.
 
We need more data to give any conclusion, not one sample reveals. Because from 1 sample reveals we can make any assumptions. We need an archeological site where atleast ~30% of samples are J2b2, so we can associate with any culture, be it Indo-European coming from Black Sea or Anatolian-like.
 
The Romans definitely utilized L283s in their military, but L283 was in Italy long before the Romans. Reference the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan sample (700 BC) and the L283 Z622 (YP61 and YP91) from Nuragic civilization in Sardinia (1200 BC). They definitely had an ancient presence in Italy and likely expanded there via Bell Beakers, Etruscans, Rhaetians, and Illyrians.

There are a few theories for why it was found in 700BC Rome, the ancient Greeks inhabited south Italy at this point and were "rivals" to the Etruscans who were further north (Rome), though I don't think Greeks ever took Rome from them. It is however possible a few illyrians and thracians not being as wealthy joined the Greeks if it was possible and became "Greeks", maybe fought in their armies and expanded with them. Which other haplogroups have been found in Rome around 1000-500 BC?

There is also people who inhabited east Italy at this period who may have had contact with Rome:

"Today’s Puglia was home to various groups known collectively as Iapigi. Prominent were the Messapians, originally from Illyria, across the Adriatic. They controlled a strategic part of the southern Adriatic, a fact evident to the Greeks who tried to settle there at mid-millennium. The Greeks who founded Taranto wrote of intense conflict with the Messapians. In spite of wars between them, trade also flourished and late Messapian pottery is often adorned with figures from Greek mythology.

The Umbrians, too, have given their name to a region of modern Italy. They traded with the Etruscans and were highly regarded as warriors. They fought and lost alongside of the Etruscans against the Greeks at the famous battle of Cuma in the 6th century BC, a defeat that marked the end of Etruscan power in Italy."

Also, wasn't L283 found in Croatia about 1000 years before this sample? Doesn't this rule out L283 not being related to Etruscans already? Or did they migrate through Croatia into Italy and hundreds years later, crossed the adriatic after being pushed out by Romans to settle alongside Illyrians or Thracians? This is difficult to imagine
 

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