K36 K36 from Eurogenes

[TardisBlue]

My family all are originally from Sicily, and perhaps my fathers family originally from Puglia given my family name and what the people in Sicilia told me.

Component %
Italian 21.96%
East_Med 18.86%
Iberian 11.49%
West_Med 8.74%
Near East 6.02%
Arabian 5.41%
Armenian 4.73%
French 4.58%
Central Europe 3.83%
East Balkans 3.73%
West_Caucasian 2.97%
North Atlantic 2.89%
East Central Europe 2.10%
North African 1.37%
North Caucasian 1.15%
Oceanian 0.17%

Your results (calculator here: https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm) seem consistent with your family's origins:

View attachment 11680

 

[TardisBlue]

I don't think I've ever posted my K36 results here, so here they are:

Iberian 18.09 Pct
North_Sea 11.54 Pct
Italian 10.47 Pct
North_Atlantic 8.80 Pct
East_Balkan 8.79 Pct
East_Med 8.24 Pct
Arabian 7.96 Pct
West_Med 6.30 Pc
French 5.50 Pct
North_Caucasian 4.18 Pct
East_Central_Euro 3.54 Pct
Eastern_Euro 2.13 Pct
Fennoscandian 1.86 Pct
Near_Eastern 1.21 Pct
Central_Euro 1.23 Pct
Basque 0.09 Pct
North_African 0.05 Pct

 

[TardisBlue]

The 3 Source approximation is obviously just that, an approximation so it for me at least has some error as I have no Jewish ancestry, and no known ancestors from the North of Italy.

Yes, I've noticed that many Italians get Jewish, either Sefardi or Ashkenazi, with the 2, 3 or 4 populations' Oracles in various calculators - and even with some companies like MyHeritage (I know, some people call their ethnicity reports an abomination… and it kind of is )

Do your results match you French ancestry using the Eurogenes K36 calculator? What about the Eurogenes K13 calculator?

I'm part NE French (with a bit of Savoie thrown into the mix), part Campanian. With Eurogenes K36, the map is accurate as far as France is concerned, but rather approximate as far as Italy is concerned. I have to use the "function B" of the calculator (designed for people coming from 2 different pops). So that's what I get:

Removing the Campanian part:

Removing the NE French part:

And with Eurogenes K13, I get this:
Single pop:

Population (source)

North_Italian

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.78[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Tuscan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.22[/TD]

Mixed mode (no Jewish ancestry either):

+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]62%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]38%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ashkenazi[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.85[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]67.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]32.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.88[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]66.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]33.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Italian_Jewish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]76.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]23.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Danish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]77.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]22.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Norwegian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.23[/TD]

I invariably come up as Northern Italian in almost all calculators when only using the "1 population" oracle.

 

[TardisBlue]

TardisBlue: Have you run through the various calculators on GEDMATCH that have Italian populations from various reasons. Campania can be run with a South_Italian reference sample.

I've checked for Eurogenes K13 and they have "South_Italian" listed in their reference samples. Trying the other calculators with South Italian in their reference samples, I get various results. The Dodecad K12B brings up French, which does fit very well, but South Italian only comes in the 4th position:

+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French (HGDP)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ashkenazi (Dodecad)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.25[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French (HGDP)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.5[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]53.7%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French (HGDP)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]46.3%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.29[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]53.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]French (HGDP)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]46.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.43[/TD]

With DodecadK7B, I get smaller genetic distances:

Single Population Sharing:

Population (source)

N_Italian (Dodecad)

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.74[/TD]

+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]74.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Romanians (Behar)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]25.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Sardinian (HGDP)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.41[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]76.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Cataluna (1000Genomes)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]23.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Turkish (Dodecad)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.78[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]80.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Cataluna (1000Genomes)[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]19.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev)[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.9[/TD]

puntDNAL K10 Ancient

	+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]65.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]34.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]German_South[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.3[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]78.7%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]21.3%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Icelandic[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]76.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Tuscan[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]23.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Scottish_West[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]

Gedrosia K6:

+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]74.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Spanish[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]25.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Adygei[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]92%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Romanian[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]BedouinA[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]88.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Romanian[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]11.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Jew_Libyan[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.52[/TD]

What do you get with those calculators?

 

[Farstar]

These are my K36 results (mother from the south east in Spain, with all known ancestors from the same place; father, Catalan, with all known ancestors from Catalonia, but in this case, with a phenotype that one could say central European or even close to Scandinavian; some rumours from the family, unconfirmed, that there is some French ancestry in the past):

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Population

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"][/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]0.11 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Arabian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]1.47 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Armenian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Basque[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]6.31 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Central_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Central_Euro[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]3.96 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Balkan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Central_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Central_Euro[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]7.53 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]3.77 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Fennoscandian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]3.93 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]French[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]6.03 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Iberian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]33.59 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Indo-Chinese[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Italian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]13.54 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Malayan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Near_Eastern[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]1.61 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North_Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]9.07 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North_Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]2.15 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]1.78 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Omotic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South_Central_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South_Chinese[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Volga-Ural[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]West_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]West_Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]5.10 Pct[/TD]

[/TD]

Is this one a reasonable admixture for my origins?

 

[bigsnake49]

Here is my K36 similarity map.

It kinda agrees with the 70% Greek and 30% Balkan mixture from both Ancestry.com and LivingDNA. There are some surprises though. For example 76% similarity to Northeastern Italy (Friuli, Veneto), 79% to Albania and Montenegro and 81% to Northern Bulgaria and 78% to Northeastern Thrace. But I am surprised by the 82% score in Peloponnese and 81% in Attica/Evoea. I was expecting a higher score in Thessaly and lower in Southern Greece.

 

[Angela]

View attachment 12294
Here is my K36 similarity map.

It kinda agrees with the 70% Greek and 30% Balkan mixture from both Ancestry.com and LivingDNA. There are some surprises though. For example 76% similarity to Northeastern Italy (Friuli, Veneto), 79% to Albania and Montenegro and 81% to Northern Bulgaria and 78% to Northeastern Thrace. But I am surprised by the 82% score in Peloponnese and 81% in Attica/Evoea. I was expecting a higher score in Thessaly and lower in Southern Greece.

Perhaps it's something to do with being midpoint between the Peloponnese and Bulgaria?

 

[bigsnake49]

Perhaps it's something to do with being midpoint between the Peloponnese and Bulgaria?

Maybe we are thinking the same thing but it could be a forced migration event from South Greece to Bulgaria during the Roman or Byzantine Empire. Emperors for some reason hate empty land that they can not tax :grin:. I know that one of the Bulgarian Tsars went down to Thessaly and forcibly moved some Thessalians to Bulgaria.

 

[Pax Augusta]

View attachment 12294
Here is my K36 similarity map.

It kinda agrees with the 70% Greek and 30% Balkan mixture from both Ancestry.com and LivingDNA. There are some surprises though. For example 76% similarity to Northeastern Italy (Friuli, Veneto), 79% to Albania and Montenegro and 81% to Northern Bulgaria and 78% to Northeastern Thrace. But I am surprised by the 82% score in Peloponnese and 81% in Attica/Evoea. I was expecting a higher score in Thessaly and lower in Southern Greece.

I've been told that Northeastern Italy is based on Friuli only, while Venetians are in the average of northern Italians (69%) along with modern people from Lombardy.