Kinship, acquired and inherited status, and population structure at the Early Bronze

j2b dude MOK15 was uploaded to yfull
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Indeed, a couple of months ago all the European ancient samples were uploaded to the J2B tree.



One of them is really peculiar, look at basal L283, they put ORC007 (Nuragic sample) under that branch. However, because its low coverage and potentially positive for some downstream SNPs it does not belong there. Some L283 admins contacted YFull to see why that is a case and asked for the justification, so far it seems like a mistake. But who knows.
 
Davidski leaked this:
But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.
 
Davidski leaked this:


yes
i now saw that would be cool :cool-v:

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A said...Is this the Greek paper you mentioned a while ago, or is there another one coming out?
May 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM

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Davidski said...There's at least one more paper coming soon about Greece or the Balkans and Greece, with samples from the Iron Age, Classical period, Middle Ages, etc.


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Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.
 
yes
i now saw that would be cool :cool-v:

blank.gif
A said...Is this the Greek paper you mentioned a while ago, or is there another one coming out?
May 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM

blank.gif
Davidski said...There's at least one more paper coming soon about Greece or the Balkans and Greece, with samples from the Iron Age, Classical period, Middle Ages, etc.


blank.gif
Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

Can't wait. Hope it does not take more than 1-2 years, like the other leaked papers.
 
Davidski leaked this: But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.


It would be for the umpteenth time the discovery of hot water. It is obvious that a civilization such as the Greek one, which was able to expand and cover a territory that went from Anatolia to North Africa and the Spanish and French coasts, was genetically a non-homogenous population.

The typical error of these amateur bloggers passionate about genetics, who some users, with great naivety, consider professionals, is that they lack the most basic historical and archaeological knowledge. Even geneticists have often insufficient historical, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological knowledge, let alone amateur bloggers.

blank.gif
Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.



Davidski is saying this because of the presumed Slavic migration story in Greece. He is angry at geneticists who don't give a damn about this story, as if the whole world should revolve around the Slavs.


When people stop being interested in ancient history only because of personal issues concerning their own identity, it will always be too late.
 
It would be for the umpteenth time the discovery of hot water. It is obvious that a civilization such as the Greek one, which was able to expand and cover a territory that went from Anatolia to North Africa and the Spanish and French coasts, was genetically a non-homogenous population.

The typical error of these amateur bloggers passionate about genetics, who some users, with great naivety, consider professionals, is that they lack the most basic historical and archaeological knowledge. Even geneticists have often insufficient historical, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological knowledge, let alone amateur bloggers.




Davidski is saying this because of the presumed Slavic migration story in Greece. He is angry at geneticists who don't give a damn about this story, as if the whole world should revolve around the Slavs.


When people stop being interested in ancient history only because of personal issues concerning their own identity, it will always be too late.


Since I'm neither Greek nor Slavic, I don't have a dog in a fight. However, I'm very much interested in Ancient Greeks and Romans since they've shaped the European heritage and had an impressive history. Hence, I look forward to samples from Classical Greece and I'm curious to find out whom they are closest to.
 
Code:
MOK9B,0,0,0.03,0,34.91,41.38,0.62,2.15,1.33,0.59,18.99,0
MOK10B,2.9,0,0,0.12,37.97,30.7,0.07,0,11.34,0.29,15.86,0.75
MOK12,0,0.78,3.05,0,39.46,34.27,0,0.04,2.67,0,19.64,0.09
MOK13,1.81,0,0.45,0,39.16,29.14,0.85,0.01,5.53,0,22.58,0.47
MOK14,3.79,0.7,3.3,0,37.97,33.85,0,0,3.07,0,17.16,0.14
MOK15,2.94,0,1.57,0,38.53,35.15,0,0.09,6.33,0,14.98,0.4
MOK16A,2.09,0,1.51,0,37.51,41.07,0.71,0,2.36,0,14.46,0.29
MOK17A,3.36,0,1.65,0.31,36.89,19.28,1.59,1.28,7.87,0,27.77,0
MOK18A,0.01,0,2.97,0.74,38.6,30.24,0.64,0,3.08,0,22.3,1.42
MOK19A,0.17,0,1.55,0.73,35.22,44.82,0,0,2.14,0.06,14.62,0.7
MOK20,2.95,0,0.82,0,37.08,34.18,1.15,0,5.41,0,17.71,0.69
MOK21A,0,0,1.45,0,36.38,48.33,0,0,0.16,0,13.07,0.62
MOK22,0,0,0.53,0.94,37.66,49.11,1.45,0,1.9,0,7.81,0.59
MOK23,0.85,0.55,1.15,0.04,34.58,49.86,0.04,0,3.16,0.31,8.53,0.93
MOK24A,1.88,0,0.88,0,38.46,36.91,2.31,0,5.47,0,13.82,0.28
MOK25A,1.39,0.43,0,0.14,40.33,37,0,0,4.04,0.55,15.22,0.89
MOK26A,3.08,0,0.41,1.87,40.71,29.78,0,0,6.35,0,17.22,0.58
MOK27,0,1.05,0,0.13,38.38,32.27,0.34,0,7.32,0,20.51,0
MOK28A,1,0.03,1.17,0.51,36.23,45.39,0,0,3.48,0,11.31,0.87
MOK29A,5.26,0.6,1.21,0,41.01,30.6,0.03,0,2.48,0,18.66,0.15
MOK30,4.32,0,0.09,0,39.17,45.76,0.3,0,2.73,0.6,6.03,0.99
MOK31,0.37,1.72,1.69,0,38.81,24.37,0,0,7.79,0,24.86,0.4
MOK32,3.91,0,2.12,0,35.47,33.15,0,0,7.66,0,17.19,0.5
MOK33,18.53,3.96,0,2.64,43.61,26.92,0,0,4.35,0,0,0

Here are the samples for this paper.
 
Distance to:Jovialis
10.74864643MOK17A
16.31440774MOK31
19.85563900MOK13
21.57664015MOK18A
22.90904625MOK27
22.99284236MOK32
23.45421071MOK26A
23.51066992MOK29A
23.51083580MOK10B
24.50256109MOK20
25.09657347MOK14
25.75641668MOK12
27.03900701MOK15
29.38907110MOK24A
29.64236327MOK25A
30.56213343MOK9B
32.11255206MOK16A
34.90534486MOK19A
36.82939994MOK28A
38.20334409MOK33
39.12751078MOK21A
40.56357110MOK30
41.65608479MOK23
42.42588243MOK22

 
Based on Jovialis' coordinates (post #49)

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
7.10973980MOK17A
7.13288862MOK31
9.34752374MOK13
11.53205966MOK18A
11.84456838MOK27
12.36716621MOK32
12.84523258MOK10B
12.89133042MOK26A
13.68285789MOK29A
13.76925924MOK20
14.79943918MOK14
15.25246210MOK12
16.21934956MOK15
18.60279280MOK24A
18.79096858MOK25A
20.63358427MOK9B
21.68185416MOK16A
24.69359634MOK19A
26.41023097MOK28A
28.97581578MOK21A
30.24503430MOK30
31.47546981MOK23
31.62416955MOK33
31.96579891MOK22
 
My distances from coordinates provided by Jovialis (post 49, used a gradiant of 100):

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_Combined
11.44593378MOK17A
17.42200620MOK31
22.03547140MOK13
23.86057837MOK18A
24.96407018MOK27
24.99093035MOK10B
25.23786045MOK26A
25.45299982MOK32
26.03796075MOK29A
27.12167583MOK20
27.80877200MOK14
28.22450354MOK12
29.35501150MOK15
31.76865908MOK24A
32.08000779MOK25A
33.79543164MOK9B
35.05058915MOK16A
37.97799494MOK19A
39.70144204MOK28A
39.71255343MOK33
42.30256612MOK21A
43.32400836MOK30
44.63727590MOK23
45.25635535MOK22

 
It would be for the umpteenth time the discovery of hot water. It is obvious that a civilization such as the Greek one, which was able to expand and cover a territory that went from Anatolia to North Africa and the Spanish and French coasts, was genetically a non-homogenous population.

The typical error of these amateur bloggers passionate about genetics, who some users, with great naivety, consider professionals, is that they lack the most basic historical and archaeological knowledge. Even geneticists have often insufficient historical, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological knowledge, let alone amateur bloggers.




Davidski is saying this because of the presumed Slavic migration story in Greece. He is angry at geneticists who don't give a damn about this story, as if the whole world should revolve around the Slavs.


When people stop being interested in ancient history only because of personal issues concerning their own identity, it will always be too late.
Before the Slavs were the Celts and the Goths, the Vandals and the Avars. Get in line, Slavs! Before those invaders there was all the migration of artisans to Athens and other thriving Greek cities from all over the Med. Even before that all the pockets of surviving Pelasgians (EEFs). Yep there was a lot of admixture.
 
Distance to:
Torziok12b
6.67385945MOK13
7.29586184MOK32
7.53574150MOK29A
7.87324584MOK26A
8.30419773MOK20
8.79490762MOK14
8.84277106MOK18A
8.90372956MOK27
9.18165562MOK10B
9.36960511MOK31
10.54345769MOK15
10.92896152MOK12
11.97106512MOK17A
12.97427069MOK24A
13.20777423MOK25A
15.97026612MOK16A
16.24850147MOK9B
19.69233099MOK19A
20.98221866MOK28A
23.70530109MOK21A
23.91177325MOK30
25.72246295MOK33
26.11773727MOK23
26.31809454MOK22





Distance to:Torziok12b
3.7285230935.60% MOK17A + 64.40% MOK32
4.0419516667.60% MOK17A + 32.40% MOK30
4.2537243459.20% MOK14 + 40.80% MOK17A
4.3401910838.80% MOK17A + 61.20% MOK20
4.5173296553.80% MOK15 + 46.20% MOK17A
4.7492529970.00% MOK17A + 30.00% MOK23
4.7855347341.80% MOK16A + 58.20% MOK17A
4.8553509765.20% MOK17A + 34.80% MOK28A
5.0820786052.40% MOK17A + 47.60% MOK24A
5.1594770033.80% MOK17A + 66.20% MOK29A
5.1766329570.60% MOK17A + 29.40% MOK22
5.2897506739.40% MOK31 + 60.60% MOK32
5.4334097664.00% MOK17A + 36.00% MOK19A
5.4617340786.80% MOK13 + 13.20% MOK33
5.4887210468.40% MOK17A + 31.60% MOK21A
5.5514044756.20% MOK13 + 43.80% MOK32
5.5570074353.00% MOK17A + 47.00% MOK25A
5.8482949833.60% MOK17A + 66.40% MOK26A
5.9614983252.80% MOK14 + 47.20% MOK31
5.9914759355.60% MOK20 + 44.40% MOK31
6.0482297861.40% MOK29A + 38.60% MOK31
6.1298665660.00% MOK10B + 40.00% MOK17A
6.1345340947.40% MOK29A + 52.60% MOK32
6.2075062626.60% MOK10B + 73.40% MOK13
6.2329001964.00% MOK13 + 36.00% MOK29A
 
Here is the Dodecad Globe 13 coordinates:

Code:
MOK9B,0,0.47,0.33,0,4.84,0,37.24,0,2,5.45,48.53,0,1.14
MOK10B,0,0.61,0.78,0,11.69,0,38.83,0,0,6.1,40.76,0.76,0.46
MOK12,0,0,0.12,0,6.11,0,42.05,1.47,0.31,6.54,43.01,0,0.41
MOK13,0,0.39,0.75,0,8.05,0,42.3,0.49,0.69,9.68,37.64,0,0
MOK14,0,0.78,0.52,0.54,6.68,0,38.85,0.57,0,9.6,42.46,0,0
MOK15,0,0.11,0.75,0,7.98,0,38.74,0.65,0.1,7.08,44.37,0,0.22
MOK16A,0,0,0.21,0.45,5.15,0,37.78,0.74,0,5.83,49.77,0.09,0
MOK17A,0.13,0,0,1.41,12.09,0.89,43.6,0.87,0.53,16.55,23.43,0.17,0.35
MOK18A,0,0,1.38,0.14,8.32,1.24,41.86,0.89,0,7.43,38.72,0,0
MOK19A,0,1,0.82,0,6.86,0.43,35.32,0.58,0,2.76,52.21,0,0.02
MOK20,0,0,0.96,0,8.75,0,37.91,0.36,0.39,8.35,42.92,0.35,0
MOK21A,0,1.63,0.86,0,4.08,0,35.55,0,0,1.48,56.4,0,0
MOK22,0,0.25,0.89,0,5.24,1.53,33.36,0.33,0,0,58.39,0,0
MOK23,0.51,1.24,0.67,0,4.69,0.13,32.78,0,0,0.78,59.21,0,0
MOK24A,0.51,0,0.9,0,7.87,0,38.15,0,0,5.05,46.37,1.15,0
MOK25A,0.95,0,0.38,0.45,7.53,0.5,37.87,0.01,0,6.18,46.14,0,0
MOK26A,0.29,0,0.69,0,8.55,1.05,40,0,0,9.88,39.55,0,0
MOK27,1.35,0.54,0.55,0,9.46,0,39.96,0.45,0,6.07,41.44,0,0.18
MOK28A,0.24,0.46,1.07,0.01,6.34,0,34.92,0.75,0,2.13,54.07,0,0
MOK29A,0.33,0,0.55,0,4.94,0,41.88,0.25,0.5,10.9,40.65,0,0
MOK30,1.13,0.05,1.28,0.16,2.32,0,34.92,0.31,0,4.13,54.93,0.77,0
MOK31,0,0.05,0.73,0,10.74,0,43.52,2.31,0,10.52,32.14,0,0
MOK32,0,1.54,0.4,0.24,12.08,0,36.08,0,0.1,6.19,43.38,0,0
MOK33,0,0,0,1.09,3.87,0,30.33,0,6.81,9.07,48.83,0,0
 
Distance to:Jovialis
9.13749419MOK17A
17.67078097MOK31
22.07027186MOK13
22.96831513MOK26A
24.19065935MOK18A
24.60202431MOK29A
25.60164253MOK10B
25.83504596MOK14
26.36555897MOK20
26.52408340MOK27
27.58360201MOK32
28.39128387MOK15
28.40546778MOK12
30.41982413MOK25A
31.18597762MOK24A
33.42938827MOK9B
33.78767231MOK33
34.11848473MOK16A
37.44198980MOK19A
39.43855347MOK28A
40.17974863MOK30
42.13969388MOK21A
44.49260500MOK22
44.92748713MOK23

 
The Iron Gates HGs still formed a significant percentage of their ancestry.

Interesting that I2a1 was already there; came to the area way before the Slavs, apparently, yes?

More steppe than in Bronze Age Italy and certainly than in Bronze Age Greece. Easier access I suppose.

Certainly no R1a yet, so perhaps only arrived with Slavs.
I think it's the opposite. Some Slavic-like R1a was already present, while Slavic I2a was practically zero percent.

It's interesting they lack E-V13, while late antiquity was full of it, and so were the Thracians. Could the E-V13 carriers caused a south-eastern shift?
 
I think it's the opposite. Some Slavic-like R1a was already present, while Slavic I2a was practically zero percent.

It's interesting they lack E-V13, while late antiquity was full of it, and so were the Thracians. Could the E-V13 carriers caused a south-eastern shift?

That's what Stamov is suggesting:

We noticed that IA Thracian samples shared most genetic drift with Neolithic and especially chalcolithic Balkan samples; they however did not
show continuity with the preceding Copper and Bronze age samples from
Bulgaria, which is puzzling.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.02.446576v1

We have already discussed that potentially the ultimate origin of E-V13 is in Encrusted Pottery Culture from Western Pannonia. Aspurg has put his arguments why this is the case.

We know that Bulgarian Neolithic and Chalcolithic had no E-V13 in their ranks, and it's quite logical to assume so without even aDNA which we have leaks now (image below).

ZREWKTh.png
 
Jovialis’ post #49
Distance to:Duarte
11.41465286MOK26A
11.85893334MOK29A
13.71989431MOK14
14.37556608MOK18A
14.40763339MOK10B
14.51881882MOK13
14.84355079MOK15
14.87050436MOK32
15.19026662MOK20
15.63879791MOK31
15.65147597MOK12
16.27092192MOK27
16.59652373MOK25A
16.68498726MOK24A
18.15247366MOK17A
20.15258048MOK16A
20.68951425MOK33
22.80255907MOK9B
24.37376869MOK19A
24.45839324MOK28A
25.04026358MOK30
27.50002909MOK21A
28.45475004MOK22
29.31282484MOK23
Distance to:Duarte
8.7595723162.20% MOK18A + 37.80% MOK33
8.7685084559.20% MOK31 + 40.80% MOK33
9.5058112554.40% MOK17A + 45.60% MOK33
9.7741088963.00% MOK13 + 37.00% MOK33
9.8648344776.00% MOK26A + 24.00% MOK33
10.2963985875.40% MOK29A + 24.60% MOK33
10.9097343061.00% MOK12 + 39.00% MOK33
11.2947628059.60% MOK27 + 40.40% MOK33
11.2991748769.00% MOK26A + 31.00% MOK29A
11.312952899.60% MOK17A + 90.40% MOK26A
11.3837960969.20% MOK14 + 30.80% MOK33
11.6234360814.40% MOK17A + 85.60% MOK29A
11.7224024017.60% MOK10B + 82.40% MOK29A
11.7800978188.20% MOK29A + 11.80% MOK31
12.0266128868.00% MOK10B + 32.00% MOK33
12.0427110265.80% MOK32 + 34.20% MOK33
12.0644348464.60% MOK20 + 35.40% MOK33
12.4780245369.80% MOK14 + 30.20% MOK17A
12.5159078462.20% MOK17A + 37.80% MOK30
12.5844189367.60% MOK15 + 32.40% MOK33
12.7155982762.80% MOK15 + 37.20% MOK17A
12.8564272065.00% MOK14 + 35.00% MOK31
13.1530052645.00% MOK17A + 55.00% MOK24A
13.1729178844.80% MOK17A + 55.20% MOK25A
13.1808485039.60% MOK10B + 60.40% MOK14
Target: Duarte
Distance: 8.1806% / 8.18059376
39.2MOK18A
38.3MOK33
22.5MOK17A






 

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