Lack of G2a in Basque

One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA

Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?

Either way, we still don't have anything to compare Basque to, so we can't be sure when the language (or the ancestral language(s) from which it is derived) arrived in Western Europe. But if we're certain it's Paleolithic, we can rest easy knowing that there is significant Paleolithic Y-DNA among Basques, and that it is of the most common variety in the Neolithic (I2a1a), as we've mentioned. The only problem remaining if all of that proves to be true is explaining how R1b expanded within Basques... and that explanation doesn't even have to be entirely based on culture or language inheritance patterns.
 
Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?

Either way, we still don't have anything to compare Basque to, so we can't be sure when the language (or the ancestral language(s) from which it is derived) arrived in Western Europe. But if we're certain it's Paleolithic, we can rest easy knowing that there is significant Paleolithic Y-DNA among Basques, and that it is of the most common variety in the Neolithic (I2a1a), as we've mentioned. The only problem remaining if all of that proves to be true is explaining how R1b expanded within Basques... and that explanation doesn't even have to be entirely based on culture or language inheritance patterns.

Well, what I think what Brictus was refering to is, which also has a few historically attested examples (Taino and Caribs in the Carribean), is that children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors. This is a scenario that could easily explain how the Basques as a society could end up being majorly R1b while retaining a Neolithic or even Paleolithic language.
 
Well, what I think what Brictus was refering to is, which also has a few historically attested examples (Taino and Caribs in the Carribean), is that children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors. This is a scenario that could easily explain how the Basques as a society could end up being majorly R1b while retaining a Neolithic or even Paleolithic language.

I have read that Basque culture is relatively matrilineal, at least compared to most IE cultures, so it's not impossible that it could play a part, but I doubt it's the primary part of the solution to the Basque question. Besides, "children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors" seems to have just as many counterexamples as examples... most of Latin America has relatively high Spanish patrilines versus Amerind matrilines, and yet Spanish is dominant. The Basques also seem to be an exception to the better correlation of Y-DNA to language families than mtDNA.
 
I have read that Basque culture is relatively matrilineal, at least compared to most IE cultures, so it's not impossible that it could play a part, but I doubt it's the primary part of the solution to the Basque question. Besides, "children will be more likely to learn their mothers language, even if we talk about a patrilineal society of conquerors" seems to have just as many counterexamples as examples... most of Latin America has relatively high Spanish patrilines versus Amerind matrilines, and yet Spanish is dominant. The Basques also seem to be an exception to the better correlation of Y-DNA to language families than mtDNA.

Well, I admit that you do have a good point about that, Sparkey. It really is more of an exception than the rule. What I recently brought up in the 'Ancient place names in Iberia' is the fact that the Basque language is very hard to estimate in it's age: Proto-Indo-European for a comparison is clearly a language of the Copper Age with common words for agriculture, horse, warfare, metals and metalworking. The Finnic languages are at least Neolithic in age, but it cannot be ruled out that it's actually Mesolithic (since the core vocabulary is that of a hunter-gatherer society). With Basque, you actually do have seemingly indigenous terms for agriculture, horse and metalworking... so, we're talking about a mystery here.
 
...we're talking about a mystery here.

Probably the truest words that can be spoken about Basque origins. It's funny that genetics, and especially Y-DNA, has actually muddied the waters further with respect to the Basques.
 
One thing. People speak "mother languages" not paternal langaguages. So Basque language is not the product of Y.Chr but of mtDNA

this is correct, languages are maternal and not paternal.

So, basically linguistics to a degree call regional/provincial languages maternal , while national languages are paternal.

basque would have retain its language from its maternal side
 
Obviously it's a product of neither, and if language was universally matrilineally inherited, we would expect all of Iberia to speak Basque, wouldn't we?
? , maternal language is not nationalistic, its a language used in the home, the village, the town. It grows in this slow way.
 
There are some. There was a study done and 4 in about 130 samples came out as G in the Basque area, not alot though.
 
this is correct, languages are maternal and not paternal.

So, basically linguistics to a degree call regional/provincial languages maternal , while national languages are paternal.

basque would have retain its language from its maternal side

there is no general everlasting rule I think:
maternal language more local in ancient time; it's turning the contrary now: with possibility to women to live their lives, to work and move, regional or local languages (in a lot ot Europe countries) have more male supporters...
 
Cardial expanded from Mediterranean sea in occident: S-France (through Corsica) to North by more than a way: on the western side they moved approximatively along Garonne river to the ocean, loosing demic weight by time (they was mixed in S-France yet) - it seams to me that present day basque territory was neolithized more by atlantic megalithers people than by genuine first E-mediterranean agriculture-breeding bearers... surely these ones played a role at first, acculturing local people of E-Iberia, S-Iberia and SW-Iberia (S-Portugal) - but their Y-G element, the predominent one in Cardial (with some few Y-E1b-V13 & J2b?), lost its weight very quickly - even if finally responsible for so called "basque" Neolithic, thing I 'm not sure of, it's not surprising Y-G is so light among Basques of today -
 
there is no general everlasting rule I think:
maternal language more local in ancient time; it's turning the contrary now: with possibility to women to live their lives, to work and move, regional or local languages (in a lot ot Europe countries) have more male supporters...

One thing that might be affecting things nowadays is that most areas nowadays have strong national or regional languages and strong public education systems that make learning the official or majority language a priority over either mom's or dad's language. So, for example, if an Italian-speaking father and a Polish-speaking mother both settle in New Jersey and have a child, that child will probably grow up to be a primarily English speaking person, because they will grow up immersed in English-language media and education. In the old days when most people lived on a farm in the middle of nowhere, learning whatever language was the nominal "national" language of your country was much harder and also much less useful in day-to-day life. This is what is happening with many former immigrant languages in the US like Cajun French, Pennsylvania "Dutch", and Yiddish. Except for a few holdouts, most kids from these communities attend regular English-medium schooling and each generation becomes more assimilated.
 
I have collected more Y-DNA data on the Basques, and it turns out that they do not completely lack G2a. I found 1.5% of G2a in 597 samples.

They don't completely lack it, it is just in such small numbers compared to other parts of Spain.
 
:innocent: :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

i wonder why they also do not speak IE,
combining their lack (such ratio are they significant?)
 
I honestly believe that whoever mentioned that surviving G2A in Europe is associated with higher elevations and herding is onto something. It certainly rings true with my paternal line.
 
Be careful. One of my previous accounts was banned for suggesting that we were mountain people. As you can clearly see, Maciamo put in bold on the G2a page that we were wiped out by the Indo-Europeans and very specifically not from the mountains.

Of course, those of us who are G2a know better ;)
 

This thread has been viewed 142368 times.

Back
Top