Immigration 'Le voile' banned in France.

[Minty]

Hmm? Did I say anywhere that every non-1st-world country is a despotism? Quote?

You did not exactly say that but so far you have called Iraq despotism and Singapore as well. Since Iraq has had a leader like Saddam I suppose it is considered as one but Singapore. I mean it is not a first world country so therefore it does not function like the first world countries but it is considered a fairly good standard Asian country, I feel it is exaggerated you call it despotism. Anyway besides Japan every other first world countries out there are western Countries, so the standard should not vary too much among these first world nations.

It seems you deliberately misrepresent what I say. This was specifically about your question regarding Vietnamese in France.

No I know you are referring to the Vietnamese immigrants in France. But I was just thinking of another country where this explanation of yours does not apply. Or are you suggesting different ethnic immigrants react differently according to their numbers in different host countries? You think the Vietnamese?fs reaction would be the same as the North Africans if their numbers is big enough in France. I personally don?ft think so. I see Vietnamese?fs behaviours more similar to other Asians in particular even closer to other East Asians. Although there still are differences between different ethnic groups of Asians but I don?ft think we Asians would react like the North Africans, we are indeed very different from them.

Do they? Do you have any statistics which show growing fundamentalism in France? Any independent studies why this could be happening? (& by independent studies I don't mean quotes from celebs, philosophers or politicians)

Like I said I don?ft have statistics, this is based on observations of the experiences of people. Why there is this fear of the rise of fundamental Muslims among governments in Europe unless they can see this happening otherwise why some of the governments (in particular the French government) would be so concern? You seriously believe they are just doing this to bully the Muslims, but why only Muslims? Not other religions like Judaism or the other religions the Asians here practise? Why only the Muslims protest the ban of religious symbols worn in governmental arenas and not the others just simply because of numbers?


According to this article: http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041209-075512-8449r.htm


Radical imams are starting to come to the attention of European governments. Many analysts fear that radical imams are using Europe's mosques to preach hate and incite anti-Western sentiments. Alain Boyer, the senior official of Reims warns that radical Muslims are recruiting more followers from France's prisons, a growing problem he says that is not given enough attention.


When Muslims go to prison in France, the imams are waiting for them," Antoine Sfeir, editor in chief of Les Cahiers de l'Orient, a publication specializing in Islamic and Arab affairs told United Press International. As an example he cited the case of Khaled Kalkal, of Algeria's GIA (the French acronym for Groupe Islamique Armee -- or Armed Islamic Group). Kalkal, points out Sfeir, went to jail for petty crimes and came out a hardened Islamist militant.


Again no hard data are available on the number of Muslims in French or European prisons. It is illegal for states in most of the continent to keep records of people's religions.

If there are cases like that this needs to be addressed by the appropriate authorities (which seemed quite incapable up to now). But in how far does banning the veil address that problem? Giving these harrassing idiots more targets to harrass does do any good?

The headscarf is an affront to France's secular ideal and to sexual equality. We don?ft know whether after the ban of religious symbols worn in governmental arenas has given these harassing young men more targets to harass. I didn?ft find any report on that. But before the ban they have discovered an alarming rise in sexist abuse of girls in schools and housing projects where young men, threatening ostracism and violence, intimidate girls into wearing veils and other religious garb, described by the report I mentioned before.

Looks like another case of deliberate misrepresentation. I did not change your words in any way. I cut the part of your paragraph that seemed worth a response & responded to that particular part. If you had other words in your mind, that's your business. I don't respond to things between the lines, but only to what I see. In a few cases I may respond to implications, but in such cases I specifically state that.

Not the way I interpret it, and I did not do it deliberately, but I won?ft go on about this any more, it would just go on and on?c

& even here what I said applies: "Morals are very relative & change over time." Can't really see your problem.

In response to how congenial fundamental Islamic values are in comparison to western values.


Never mind?cyou make me tired.kashii:

& these little racists are all unhappy losers?

You really like to label people with harsh names; I would just consider them close minded. Like I said before where I talked about the examples of the Asians in America, similarly the Asians in France, the successful ones are the ones who achieved something great like in the areas of science and technology or possibly in Arts like Ang Lee for example. Well, there are not a lot of Asians who won high rank awards in the Arts industry in the Western Countries because most Asians go into the areas of science and technology or in the field of commerce for their careers.


The ones who are opening restaurants, salons...etc are not really being considered as the successful ones in the host countries but at least with the Asians in France which are mainly Vietnamese if they cannot get into high rank jobs they just operate small legal business and don?ft clash with the government unlike the North Africans.


I would think the ones who achieve high rank jobs to be considered much more successful and happier than the ones who don?ft.

Perhaps I know more than you think, but don't expect any pity.

I don?ft think you know more about Asian immigrants than I do, but you can believe what you want. Why aren?ft I surprise you don?ft have any pity for Asian immigrants? And ironically you have so much pity for the North African immigrants? When they ended up in ghettos it?fs the French governments?f fault, when they don?ft get good jobs you question whether it is because they receive discriminations from the native French and the government of France push them around?cetc


But when it is Asians?f turn in France?fs example it would be the Vietnamese since they are the majority of the Asians residing in France. When they first got here they have nothing but they work and work and don?ft complain and don?ft end up in ghettos. Who say they did not receive any discriminations, how would you know they didn?ft just because they didn?ft end up in ghettos or because they didn?ft protest after the ban of all religious symbols in governmental arena? Or because they won?ft say therefore discrimination does not exist against them?

That may be the difference: most of the Chinese that I know do not immigrate, but only study abroad. Some have gone to the US to stay, some are here in Germany to stay, but even they don't talk much about politics. To get to know their political opinions is often a delicate business.

If they are staying and getting permanent residents or becoming citizens, they are immigrants. There are many different kinds of immigrants other than the two kinds I mentioned in the majority of the US contemporary Asian immigration examples.

That is true. But, then again, this continually happens with my girlfriend, yet we stay together. If it works the same with you, we have a wonderful future before us.

Don?ft compare me to your girlfriend,:wary: I am not sure how ?gclose?h your relationship is with your girlfriend (not that is any of my business) but I am just a person you discuss issues/ideas with on the internet, it is not the same as the romantic relationship you have with your girlfriend.

I'm an atheist. Should suffice to know. Do your quotations mean that you want to forbid all religions which put women in a subordinated position? Because banning some religious symbols alone won't change any religion.

Yes they should forbid all patriarchal religions or allow a goddess to be praised to equivalent position. You know it is viable to have humans to exercise anything - anything at all - all you have to do is brainwash them to trust those matters are accurate and that is what they will do! The human brain is not as invulnerable in most humans as you may believe because most humans are profoundly scared to cogitate for themselves. It require departing what they think is a secure world - a secure life - a life however in which one is being downtrodden and the other one, domineer is a sad gone being. Women should all have the right to total liberty; wearing ?ghijab?h is the opposite of freedom and self-respect.


Getting rid of religions which put women in a subordinated position would reinstate equilibrium and concord throughout the globe.
Suppressive "customs" even those founded on "religion" that are configured to crush only females are offences. They utterly are human rights violations and there is no, none whatsoever acceptable reasons for doing them.
Mankind has been in sexuality pandemonium overly age long and cannot tolerate this much further.

Ah, I see, you're one of those...
Honestly, I don't really like this kind of generalising wording, when it's not meant like that. If people don't mean all French, they shouldn't say "the French", adding little words like most or many is really not asked too much (just one letter more than in the).

There we go again, you are labelling me again.


Very often when the others talk about Chinese they don?ft differentiate either. I met quite a lot of people who seems to think we are all the same, even they know there are differences they still do this on the internet and in real life and I have learned not to take it literally, seriously.


Actually I find that if people mean all French or all Chinese they say all Chinese, all French. The French, the Chinese?cetc to a lot of people just means the government or the majority. For examples, The Chinese eat dogs. The French have banned headscarves in schools. The French eat snails...etc

 

[Maciamo]

Let's revive a bit this discussion. I found out that in Turkey, wearing the headscarf is banned in all state buildings, so as to respect the state secularism.

If a country that is 99% Muslim is allowed to ban headscarves (or other relgious symbols) in state buildings, I really do not see why the world's country secular country, France, wouldn't be allowed to do so. France's Turkish population is certainly not in a position to complain. It is highly hypocritical for other Muslims (e.g. Maghrebans) to attack the French government on this and keep quiet when the Turks do the same.

 

[Maciamo]

I wonder how the Muslims of Europe would react if instead of banning the veil, it became on the contrary compulsory for all Muslim women, just like the Jewish star was compulsory for the Jews under the Nazi regime. Just find another distinctive sign for the men (beard, Muslim hat, whatever), make it compulsory too, and I am pretty sure that soon the Muslims will accuse European governments of being Neo-nazis wanting to ostracise them. But when they do it by themselves and refuse to integrate by themselves, then Europeans should accept that ? I tell you, if you want them to integrate, we should make those signs compulsory (at atll time in public) for a while, just to make them reflect about their status within European society !

 

[Starship]

13 August 2007 Rep. Ireland

A Sikh member of the Garda (Police) reserve was banned from wearing his ceremonial headdress, the turban. Integration Minister Conor Lenihan last night backed up the Garda Siochana ruling, saying immigrants to this country must accept our culture.

Sikhs wear turbans to cover the long uncut hair worn as a sign of their commitment to their religious faith. The turban is a headdress consisting of a long scarf-like single piece of cloth wound round the head or an inner hat.

As turbans are worn by Sikh police officers elsewhere, most notably the London Metropolitan Police, a compromise may be reached.


6 March 2003 USA

A Sikh man is suing the New York Police Department after he was dismissed from the force for refusing to remove his turban or shave off his beard. Amric Singh Ratour from Queens is accusing his bosses of discrimination on religious grounds.
Mr Ratour was born and raised in New York and said that he felt betrayed because he had been denied an important expression of his religious faith.
A spokesman for the New York Police Department said there were other Sikh officers in the force who wore coverings under uniformed hats. For instance, Mr Ratour’s father and brother were police officers and both decided to conform with the NYPD’s rules.

20 January 2007 UK

A Muslim woman police officer has sparked a new debate by refusing to shake hands with Britain’s most senior police chief for religious reasons. The woman had earlier insisted that it was contrary to her religious teaching for her to touch a man.
Despite a vigorous recruitment campaign, there are still only around 300 Muslims among the Met’s 35,000 officers and fewer than 20 are women.



After the initial controversy the Garda Siochana stood firm and would not allow the headdress, it was suggested that events in the UK contributed to this decision. Mr Ratour won his case and for a time it was thought a case might be brought against the Gards and it was felt by many they would lose but in the end the Sikh community did not pursue it. That’s not to say they wont in the future as Mr Ratour was at the least second generation American.

I fully agree with the French system of separating Religion and State but I would like to think that it was possible to introduce some concessions where the strict adherence to the rules would leave one community unrepresented. In this case the Sikh left the Garda Reserve and having listened to Sikh commentators on the radio discuss their contribution to military and constabularies around the world I felt it was our loss.

 

[Minty]

I have discovered something.

Despite of the ban some Muslims still wear headscarves to schools anyway. Two of my professors are Muslims, they are born in France but their origins are Turk. One of them comes to school with headscarves on which is prohibited.

I didn't say anything because I don't want to be mean. Most of the students in my class don?ft know about the headscarves ban because all are foreigners and it seems that the students in my class pay very little attention to politics. Most spend most of their time at the faculty flirting (from what I have observed)?c

Anyway their classes are very unpopular, most students don't bother to turn up for their classes, both do very little to prepare for what they want the students (us) to do in the class.

On the last week of our class ?gelles ont posé un lapin.?h Many of my classmates were very angry as this was an act of irresponsibility. They are disappointed that we will have them again next semester.

You know the irony is Islam has a lot of discrepancies with Europe. It is obvious the two don?ft get along and yet many Muslim people like to come to Europe as illegal immigrants. Now it is almost Xmas, the government even gives them free shelter and foods which just encourages more illegal immigrants and is shown on TV. More irony, there are tones of Muslims in my faculty who want to stay here, one even thought by having babies here would win her rights to stay here. I decided not to tell her as I feel it is not my place to tell her.

Majority of them are taking every opportunity they can to get information and advice from me of how to stay here!!! Sometimes I feel like some sort of bridge between the East and the West?cthe people of East Asian descents also do this, like S Koreans the Mainland Chinese etc?cit?fs like people line up to talk to me to get scoop benefits or something?chow peculiar?c

 

[Maciamo]

Hi Minty ! Glad to see yu posting again. It had been a while...

I understand very well what you mean. I think that most Muslims don't care if their culture is not compatible with European culture when they come here. They plan to keep on living the way they want in their self-made ghettoes, so they are not the ones bothered.

What they want is a better life than in their home country. Better public services, better roads, better cars, more products available in shops (I noticed that electronics, music and games are very popular with African immigrants), better health care, cleaner streets, and so on.

They are not coming for the culture - or the people for that matter. What they hope is that they will enjoy all the benefits of a developed country while keeping their own culture and lifestyle (and even trying to impose it on natives).

It's a new form of sneaky colonisation - a brand new kind where the poor and uneducated win over the rich by their sheer number and their lack of fear of repression. And thanks to the Western obsession with human rights and solidarity, many natives (of the Socialist variety) feel that they even need to welcome these unscrupulous immigrants, give them social accommodation, free health care and minimum wages. In other words, that's paradise when you come from a country where you lived in shanty towns and didn't get 2 meals every day.

 

[Starship]

It's a new form of sneaky colonisation - a brand new kind where the poor and uneducated win over the rich by their sheer number and their lack of fear of repression. And thanks to the Western obsession with human rights and solidarity, many natives (of the Socialist variety) feel that they even need to welcome these unscrupulous immigrants, give them social accommodation, free health care and minimum wages. In other words, that's paradise when you come from a country where you lived in shanty towns and didn't get 2 meals every day.[/quote]


As a opposed to the more direct colonisation employed by European powers on many of these very same people's over the past numerous centuries.

Much of what you have said would sound very familiar to the anglo saxon Americans who were horrified by the flood of Irish emigrants in the mid 19 centuary. Uneducated, forming their own gettos, with their own religion and culture. But in time (it took generations) they asimilated and became an intrinsic part of the US giving it several of its Presidents. But to this day they still have a very clear and seperate identity as Irish Americans.

Hopefully the people making their way to Europe will make a positive contribution in time.

 

[Atzerrian]

Good for France. It's about time the French government puts the Muslims in their place.