Lessons from Katrina

[No-name]

Mike- forgive me, I was being sarcastic. if you read the first article that Jarvis posted, I was being a bit facetious by adapting the same tone it used, except replacing "local mostly black politicians" with "mostly White republican establishment." It was lame on my part.

Jarvis- you can make huge and long winded excuses for this Administration's failure in the Katrina disaster. The President and his crew dropped the ball and this time hundreds of Americans died. We took FEMA from a highly functional cabinet level organization, dropped it under Homeland Security, and used it to return political favors. When it was supposed to step up, it faltered. Although most of what you say may have more than a grain of truth- the primary responisibility in disasters of this magnitude is now under the Office of Homeland Security. The entire levy system is the responsibility of the Army Corps of Engineers. Whatever inadequacies were apparent in the local city, parish and state plans- the Regional assistance plan kicked in on Saturday, before the storm hit- and the feds from that point on were supposed to be in charge. Somehow when people point out the obvious about who is responsible, we are accused of "playing the blame game." But when the Jarvis', and conservative pundits blame the victims, and the local officials who have lost homes, family members, and who were on the ground and doing there jobs the entire time, they are not? I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around. But real leaders take responsibility from the top. Too bad we don't have one.


This just seems like another "My Pet Goat" episode. Except instead of sitting with a stupid expression for a mere seven minutes, the president continued his vacation and partied in San Diego for two days. When are we going to stop making excuses for this guy and get angry? How many more people have to die?

 

[No-name]

By the way, you other source is probably mistaken- The Army Corps has nothing to do with Gambling ships, and although most marinas in the area are under its perview, it neither build, owns or controls them- so it seems unlikely that money could have been diverted from the levies to either of these areas.

 

[jarvis]

are you kanye west?



http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2678975

 

[No-name]

Becase we have international participation on this forum, there may be individuals that are unfamiliar with the way things work here, or what the facts were in this case and may actually think that what Jarvis is saying might be remotely accurate. This is a whole bunch of editorials and sites that include opinions that are very different than Jarvis'. Included is a video clip and a sound clip you have to hear:
These are three opinion/editorials that clearly place the blame on the federal government and the Administration:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054581
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=h...ddy(d3(d-(WfQ3DQ22Q3DWQ22(d-Q2AWQ2BQ2ASQ60Rgj
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=h...DQ5CNDQ5CLDQ23ZOQ27OQ23Q27DQ5CL8Q23r8Q5EQ3Bzc)

This is that Broussard, president of Jackson Parish- Please watch this one:
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001798.htm

This is Ray Nagin's rant at the height of the emergency:
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

More criticism of the Administration:
http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20050902/D8CBQAP01.html
http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20050903/D8CCH8AOP.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/times.picayune.editorial/index.html

Sorry for the crappy post. I'm not in a good mood. Jarvis- that racist crap and republican lame excuses crap makes me angry beyond belief. It seems to inhibit my ability to be clever, funny, or unbiased.(Crap, crap, crap....)

I was just in New Orleans last month. I know people that died there. I have friends that lost business, and homes- basically everything they own. I have friends that lost family- they are either dead or missing.

 

[jarvis]

when the water resides, I think people will see the real truth of the matter, that the mayor and the govener , have attacked bush to cover their own incompidence.

 

[No-name]

Several of the links above- particularly the NY Times links will require a free registration before you can retrieve them.

 

[Mike Cash]

Whether the money got diverted or not, local corruption and incompetence certainly played a role in it:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200509\NAT20050907a.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html

I wish to excerpt from
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4803

But we are a federal republic, so the President and national agencies work to support state and local officials?\not to usurp them or "take over." We expect our local and state governments to govern and manage their polities, their policies and programs; to plan and prepare for crises and to continue governing. Indeed Homeland Security Presidential Directive 5 states clearly:

?gThe Federal Government recognizes the roles and responsibilities of State and local authorities in domestic incident management. Initial responsibility for managing domestic incidents generally falls on State and local authorities. The Federal Government will assist State and local authorities when their resources are overwhelmed, or when Federal interests are involved.?h

One of the things about America that troubles me most is how public perception of the government has changed from a bottom-up to a top-down view.

 

[jarvis]

why do you think liberals are attacking bush so much? they want America to turn into a solicalist hell hole....like new orleans

 

[Frank D. White]

I Hate To Admit It....

but it would be a fun thrill to run through a Walmart taking anything and not having to pay. You wouldn't even have to put up with the "greeters" at the door entrance, LOL. I think I'd be in the guns and ammo section.

Frank

kashii:

 

[No-name]

mikecash- absolutely no disagreement here at all. There will be enough blame to go all the way around. You can't look at 200 flooded school buses and not wonder if the local authorities shouldn't have been more forceful with the evacuation. You can't ignore the conduct of local law enforcement, nor should the regional plan that was entirely inadequate escape criticism. The plan, even where it was implemented, seemed to have made the situation worse- State and local resources were clearly overwhelmed, and as the largest US port, Federal interests were certainly involved.

But since 2002, the office of homeland security has taken primary responsibility for all regional disasters. Because they were supposed to take the lead and because the mayor and governor requested federal assistance- according to the plan, on 8/27... that office, and the administration that used FEMA as a patronage post- should bear the brunt of the blame.

I keep comparing it to the 1992 FEMA response to Hurricane Andrew. Destruction was widespread, and an equally large percentage resisted evacuation. But federal assistance averted the kind of chaos and hell we saw in NOLA because federal troops were on the ground and aid was arriving within 12 hours. Somehow in retooling FEMA as a terrorism response unit, I think we may have scewed it up.

 

[No-name]

Jarvis, it is not just liberals that are critical of Dubya. Perhaps people are critical of him because he is incompetent.

Frank- if I'm going to loot a store, why would it be a Walmart? Let's go for QUALITY looting, since low prices are irrelevant.

 

[RockLee]

Jarvis, it is not just liberals that are critical of Dubya. Perhaps people are critical of him because he is incompetent.

Frank- if I'm going to loot a store, why would it be a Walmart? Let's go for QUALITY looting, since low prices are irrelevant.

Don't forget the rest of the world Not only the liberals are pissed, half of the world is pissed. (forgive my sense of measurement...I know it sucks :blush: )

 

[jarvis]

you mean the freach with oil deals with saddam? or the women the talaban beat up?

 

[Elizabeth]

Whether the money got diverted or not, local corruption and incompetence certainly played a role in it:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200509\NAT20050907a.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html

I wish to excerpt from
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4803


One of the things about America that troubles me most is how public perception of the government has changed from a bottom-up to a top-down view.

It would be an interesting historical exercise to compare the response times of presidents in times of extraordinary emergencies such as this (when local and state officials are overwhelmed) -- going back at least since '27 when Hoover was widely praised for his swift, decisive action to the Mississippi floods. I certainly can't recall this level of criticism for either party and from both to a disaster in my lifetime. In Bush's case, of course, so much of his appeal rested on perceptions of strong leadership, competence and trustworthiness that was already eroding with the situation in Iraq,
it's going to be very difficult to convince the detractors that it wasn't lack of comprehension but that he acted on the principle of restoring a smaller, more responsive government. kashii:

 

[jarvis]

was this the largest natural disaster the US has ever had?

 

[Sensuikan San]

mikecash- absolutely no disagreement here at all. There will be enough blame to go all the way around. You can't look at 200 flooded school buses and not wonder if the local authorities shouldn't have been more forceful with the evacuation. You can't ignore the conduct of local law enforcement, nor should the regional plan that was entirely inadequate escape criticism. The plan, even where it was implemented, seemed to have made the situation worse- State and local resources were clearly overwhelmed, and as the largest US port, Federal interests were certainly involved.

Agreed. And I think the "blame" should go all round!

I am now, belatedly, aware of the way 'the system' works - and I think that I can see the reasons for it working that way. On reflection, admirable principles well in tune with the founding fathers thoughts on how their governmental structure should be set up.

However, I see a weakness; a weakness born of a desire to not be held accountable. A simplistic analogy:

If I forget or neglect to service my car - the responsibility for it failing me therefore rests with me; I cannot blame the dealership for not servicing it, nor can they service it without my asking!

... but ... if they know that my car desparately needs servicing (by virtue of the passage of time etc.etc.) - they will remind me to ask them!

Yes - I know that the Federal Government could not act without State request - but were they totally oblivious to 'Katrina"? I think not.

So why did they not simply ask, or prompt, the State authorities to scream for help, in order that they could swing into action - as everyone seems to think they would?

I feel that the most embarrassing thing now, is all the "finger pointing" that we now will have to observe for the months (years?) to come. It smacks of very weak government to me! Let us hope that the outcome of it all will result in stronger government.

you mean the freach with oil deals with saddam? or the women the talaban beat up?

Sorry - but I think Jarvis is merely ranting again. I shall no longer respond to his posts.

was this the largest natural disaster the US has ever had?

...and is that a genuine question? - or is he just setting us up for another monotonous round of links to obscure and sometimes dubious sites?

..and BTW ... I wasn't too happy about being referred to as "SS",either! I'm afraid the initials tend to represent a point of view that is diametrically opposed to my own philosophical outlook!

?W????

 

[No-name]

Don't Blame Dubya for anything!

Don't blame President Bush!

Well, he didn't keep us safe from terrorists. (But that wasn't his fault) He spends a lot of time on vacation. (But that's okay) He either lied or was terribly mistaken when he set off and broke his promise about "nation building" and invaded another soverign nation for WMD's we never found. (But you know, 9/11) He didn't forsee the rising gas prices that are picking our pocket sapping our growth. (He is after all an oil man by trade.)

More people are unemployed than when he took office, and poverty, especially among children has risen sharply. (But he does really care.) We are stuck in a war with no exit "strategery". (But please stay the course.) Whatever good will we had not only with our close allies but with all other nations, he has pissed away by parading around like a boorish bully. (But that's the essence of real guts.) And all this was before the hurricane. Now half a million more are out of work and people are suffering. But it is not Bush's fault. We continue to make excuses for our chief executive. I'm sure he has a plan.

Our government went from a surplus to a record deficit, but blame terrorists and not nonsensical changes in tax laws.

Our schools were saddled with more regulations, but not a single dollar more. Blame lazy teachers and call their unions terrorist organizations.

Corporations embark in a kind of scorched earth race to the bottom of the ethical pile, while their executives dine at the white house. But how was he supposed to know? (After all, our precious corporations including energy companies post record profits.)

He's not to blame for being inarticulate. For saying stupid, boorish or insulting things, or for flipping off cameras and newsmen. He is our leader.

The first few days of this relief effort were a disaster all by themselves. And someone will take the blame. It won't be Dubya'.

Guantanmo Bay, Abu Gahraib, Haliburton, Enron- New lows in ethical values- but don't blame the leader of the free world, the commander in chief. He is not a role model like some baseball player or rap star.

Our leader has lead us into the land of excuses. A land of low expectations. Where lower taxes raise more money for an endless war that was based on shadows. We chase terrorists in another endless conflict and gladly surrender our civil liberties for the illusion of security.

He has however kept his pants firmly around his waist. He has spoken up for life while thousands died. He has smiled, and charmed, and in private, prayed and apologized. He is our leader, and we are on the precipace of mediocrity. It is not his fault.

 

[WHEATTHlNS]

Well, he didn't keep us safe from terrorists.

Noone can keep us "safe from terrorism" what the current checks in place. All you can do is mitigate and lessen their ability to conduct business on American soil. BUSH has attempted to do that, despite the chest-beating rhetoric of the left and the ACLU.

He spends a lot of time on vacation.

These are working vacations - away from the White House. You understand that during the runup to KATRINA landing, Bush was constantly briefed of the situation in his WARROOM in CRAWFORD. This is a strawman talking-point argument used over and over and over again - that has no merit. Vacation does not mean "absence from addressing WH duties".

He either lied or was terribly mistaken when he set off and broke his promise about "nation building" and invaded another soverign nation for WMD's we never found.

Write your congressman about that one then - as they had the same intel the President had, and they granted him WAR POWERS based on said intel.

He didn't forsee the rising gas prices that are picking our pocket sapping our growth.

The PRESIDENT doesnt control gas prices.

More people are unemployed than when he took office.

You might want to take a look at just what the UI rate is -

We are stuck in a war with no exit "strategery".

Who are we at "war" against?

Our government went from a surplus to a record deficit, but blame terrorists and not nonsensical changes in tax laws.

No I blame the reduction in the defense budget under President Clinton that created an artificial "boom" that in no way would have survived the "bust" of the Dot.com age, as well as the renewed (NEEDED) focus on modernizing our military. However, if you think that the economy under CLINTON was fool-proof and only a REPUBLICAN could have come in to damage it - I got some swamp-land to sell ya.

Our schools were saddled with more regulations

Oh - you mean that silly NCLB act which RIDICULOUSLY manadates that if you want Federal Dollars (and remember - you dont HAVE to take the gov. cash) then you're teachers MUST actually know HOW to teach. . .that silly law?

but not a single dollar more.

90% of EDU funding comes from the state. And do you have a link to back up your assertion that education spending has gone down (heres a hint - it hasnt and has actually gone UP over the previous admins spending).

Blame lazy teachers and call their unions terrorist organizations.

Link?

Corporations embark in a kind of scorched earth race to the bottom of the ethical pile, while their executives dine at the white house. But how was he supposed to know?

Welcome to a Federal Republic built on free enterprise - hope you enjoy your stay.

He's not to blame for being inarticulate. For saying stupid, boorish or insulting things, or for flipping off cameras and newsmen. He is our leader.

Ad hominem attack.

The first few days of this relief effort were a disaster all by themselves.

Thats a heckuva accusation - you have anything to back it up?

Really - much of this reads like a LEFTIST'S GUIDE TO ANTI-BUSH talking points. . .

 

[No-name]

Exactly Wheatthins- Because the president dithered for days while Americans died in their attics, in hospital beds and shelters, just because his horse-man head of FEMA patron was entirely incompetent doesn't mean we should get angry. The leadership vacuum is not his fault. Don't blame W. Let's hold him to the lowest possible standards and make excuses for him even when the screw ups result in the deaths of Americans. Where the standard for Clinton was high- we investigated endlessly every bit of conduct and policy- to uncover the whole Lewinsky thing-- He rightly faced criticism for every statement and action...let's just read along with Dubya'. "My Pet Goat"

 

[WHEATTHlNS]

Ok - again - do you have anything to back up your assertion that the PRESIDENT did NOTHING? I know thats false, but if you know something I dont I'm an active listener and have no problem in getting more information. The response may not have been ideal or lead to a smooth initial operation - but I know to levy the charge that he did nothing is simply wrong and not backed up by facts.